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The Christian Civic League of Maine's Mike Hein calls Pam's House Blend:
"a leading source of radical homosexual propaganda, anti-Christian bigotry, and radical transgender advocacy."

He is "praying that Pam Spaulding will "turn away from her wicked and sinful promotion of homosexual behavior." (CCLM's web site, 10/15/07)


Ex-gay "Christian" activist James Hartline on Pam:
"I have been mocked over and over again by ungodly and unprincipled anti-christian lesbians."
(from "Six Years In Sodom: From The Journal Of James Hartline," 9/4/2006, written from the "homosexual stronghold" of Hillcrest in San Diego).

"Pam is a 'twisted lesbian sister' and an 'embittered lesbian' of the 'self-imposed gutteral experiences of the gay ghetto.'" -- 9/5/2008



Peter LaBarbera of Americans for Truth Against Homosexuality heartily endorses the Blend, calling Pam:

A "vicious anti-Christian lesbian activist."
(Concerned Women for America's radio show [9:15], 1/25/07)

"A nutty lesbian blogger."
(MassResistance radio show [16:25], 2/3/07)


Pam's House Blend always seems to find these sick f*cks. The area of the country she is in? The home state of her wife? I know, they are everywhere. Pam just does such a great job of bringing them out into the light.
--Impeach Bush


who monitors yours Bevis ?? Just thought I would drop you a line,so the rest of your life is not wasted.
--"Joe"

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Ballot initiatives provide a wake up call to the LGBT community about race (updated)

by: Pam Spaulding

Wed Nov 05, 2008 at 07:30:00 AM EST


NOTE: I have updated this essay to incorporate some of the questions raised in the thread, some of the answers I gave, as well as comments I've made on other blogs and e-lists in response to the original post (I've preserved that here).

I didn't think this would happen in my lifetime. We did it - we jettisoned the right-wing and its failed policies out into deep space and made history in the process. We did it with a diverse coalition of citizens - people who look like the America of the future, not the past. It will be a joy to see the Obama family restore dignity to the White House.

But it is a bittersweet moment. While we have crossed one threshold, marriage amendments in Arizona, Florida and California have passed. In Arkansas, voters decided to ban the ability of gay and lesbian couples to adopt a child. To put things in perspective, voters in California handily approved another measure to improve the health and well-being of livestock - "Standards for Confining Farm Animals," but were content to eliminate the existing right of gays and lesbians to marry.

It makes it quite clear that equality is in the eye of the beholder, and we must reconcile the fact that some of the same people who marked that ballot for Barack Obama did not see fit to vote to prevent discrimination against gay and lesbian couples. 

And now I feel that a giant snowball of blame game is about to roll over and crush me on this front. Who voted for Yes on 8 is clear now, as exit polls show 70% of blacks, (with black women at 74%) voted for the amendment. That's about 20 points higher than any other racial group. But the blame needs to be put into perspective - blacks represent only 6.2% of California's population and they were about 10% of those who voted.  One reader noted this decision in the Sunshine State:

That was certainly the case in Florida in the passage of Amendment 2. One of the groups fighting it made it very clear that they were going to do no outreach whatsoever to the black community. I fear this was a fatal flaw.

...I believe by failing to deal with the elephant in the room, so to speak, we missed the opportunity to not only move the black community but also engage them in a dialog that is much needed and position ourselves to improve understanding between our two communities.

For those of us who are black and gay, a group too often marginalized within a marginalized community, I see this as a clear signal to the LGBT advocacy community. There hasn't been enough outreach to those groups who voted against us. We haven't reached them; there hasn't been enough effort expended.

I've been blogging for years about the need to discuss race in regards to LGBT issues. I hope that this is now the wakeup call for our "professional gays" out there who represent us to come out of their comfort zones and help bridge this concrete education gap. The belief that white=gay is big part of the problem, and as long as black LGBTs are invisible in their own communities and there is a dearth of color in the public face of LGBT leadership, the socially conservative black community can remain in denial that I exist as a black lesbian. 

Pam Spaulding :: Ballot initiatives provide a wake up call to the LGBT community about race (updated)

But the losses are about more than these racial hurdles. I thank Darkrose for her diary "Blame the Brown People = Recipe for Failure." It puts the defeats in perspective. A snippet:

It seems like the frame for the passage of Prop 8 is going to be "It's because Obama's candidacy caused increased black turnout, and the black community is homophobic." Never mind that it was voters 65 and over who put Prop 8 over the top, or that one of the whitest institutions in America--the Mormon Church--funnelled millions of dollars from Utah to California to make sure that 8 passed. The parts of the state that went solid for 8 were the inland areas, which are overwhelmingly white.

...It wasn't a black group that put Prop 8 on the ballot, and paid the signature-gatherers and bankrolled the ads. Nor is it fair to say that Obama's have-it-both-ways position meant that black voters were going to march sheeplike to the polls and vote as Obama dictated.

Writing off an entire race as hopelessly unenlightened isn't going to help.

There have been immediate defensive reactions and confused interpretation of my post's point at my pad that don't surprise me. They read it somehow as an attack rather than a call for a collective focus on the issue. My reply to one reader:

"Who is blaming whites for homophobia in the black community? No one caused the homophobia, but it is the responsibility of all of us to do that outreach to change hearts and minds.

My point is that the discomfort that many whites have about race (little exposure to and no deep personal relationships with any POC) has an impact on dealing with communities of color when it comes to outreach. That results in a failure to educate. That's not an indictment of whites or dropping the "racist bomb", it simply partially explains why you see few POC at the head of LGBT organizations (or even populating those staffs). 

It's much the same as straight people are more comfortable with LGBTs-and our issues-if they know someone who is LGBT. The discomfort melts away. "

There is a lot of work to do, and we have to be willing to accept this challenge to communicate and bridge these gaps. All of us. I added this comment in response to another knee-jerk reaction:

"My comments-and your reaction-are what keep the discussion about the lack of communication between white (dominated LGBT) establishment and communities of color that leads to less information being disseminated. This can be addressed if people own up to the fact that unexamined white privilege and black defensiveness plays a role in the silence. We can do something about that if we want to.  We all have biases. It doesn't make anyone evil, it only needs to be named and accounted for so we can all move forward.

Too often the reaction to my raising this to run to see the extreme rather than a request that we stop hiding from hurdles we have on these issues.

Who is supposed to educate the (socially conservative) religious black community - is it seen as only a "black problem" to be dealt with by the LGBT blacks already underrepresented in our orgs? That's my fear. As a community we stress the support we need from allies. It's sad that when it comes to this scenario, everyone runs for cover. It's time to talk, not retreat to corners."

We all must do outreach as we do with other constituencies. I don't pretend to have an answer to this, mind you, I'm asking that we open up a dialogue about the hurdles that exist but we rarely discuss.

After all, I am a non-practicing Episcopalian. I have views and life experience that differs from the "churched." Just because I am black doesn't give me any special power to communicate to the social conservative black religious community. But we obviously have let this community remain off of the education radar because of assumptions and discomfort with engaging those who are different, then it creates a vicious cycle.

In fact, you could say that a white/Latino, etc. person of faith might have a better chance at breaking through this barrier than an unchurched person of color, but maybe not. Perhaps the best conduit is through members of the LGBT black religious community.

The bottom line is that we need to have those strategic discussions instead of writing them off completely. If we truly believe every vote counts (and the black community is otherwise mostly politically aligned with progressive views), then to avoid a group out of discomfort makes no sense. 

Perhaps with a fresh administration, and new players in the mix, we will all be forced to challenge ourselves to really communicate on a host of challenging issues of this kind.

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Spot on Pam
That was certainly the case in Florida in the passage of Amendment 2. One of the groups fighting it made it very clear that they were going to do no outreach whatsoever to the black community. I fear this was a fatal flaw.

While it is true that a significant portion of this community was voting yes, they probably also had the largest number of voters who were open to persuasion. When presented with a very powerful piece that presented Obama's opposition to amendment 2 that framed the amendment in terms of the discrimination it truly represented, you could see heads turn and nod in agreement. Whether that translated into a no vote once they were in the voting booth, is known only by the voter.

But I believe by failing to deal with the elephant in the room, so to speak, we missed the opportunity to not only move the black community but also engage them in a dialog that is much needed and position ourselves to improve understanding between our two communities.


It's about fundamental religion
To blame blacks is to keep racism going.  Both black and whites voted for Yes on Prop 8.  Religion is responsible for cultivating and encouraging a large portion of our society's homophobia.  Simply stated, fundamental Christians don't want homosexuals, and for them to change their views will take more than outreach from LGBT groups.
With the stock market as it is, it was tough for me to donate the $2500.00 I gave to NoOnProp8, more than I could afford right now. Obama stating he was against gay marriage at the Rick Warren debate was used against us in TV ads here in California.  They took his statement that millions saw on national TV and influenced voters. Very few saw the statement to us that he supported NoOnProp8.  We have to fight and protest for our rights ..The country is headed towards a theocracy due to a religious fervor and voting power.   I am legally married to my husband in California.  The marriage is stil valid and I will fight to keep it valid and recognized on a Federal level.  

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

I wouldn't blame black voters for supporting 8
But I reserve the right to blame the organizations responsible for defeating prop 8 for failure to reach out to black voters.

Not fair
This hurts, and let's not pile hurt onto anyone who worked hard and long on our behalf.  You can't turn around historical forces with an ad campaign in six months.

Equality for All put together an amazing coalition of all races, creeds, orientations, and classes.  Sam Jackson and Magic Johnson were just two of the most visible and well-known AA allies who were recruited and who stepped up for us.

No recriminations today.  Instead, I don't know....  Let's all email Tavis Smiley and ask him to invite Pam and Terrance onto his show to talk about the bittersweet of this historic election.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto


[ Parent ]
Churches
I'm much more inclined to blame the Mormons, myself. They're the ones who threw so much money and effort into the anti-gay initiatives, though the Catholic Church and the black churches were right there with them.

However, I absolutely reject the notion that white LGBTs are to blame for African-American homophobia, that their bigotry can be blamed on our failure to educate.


Tax religion. They want to blow money on discrimination, let them but
make them pay the same as everyone else.  That includes property taxes & income taxes.

It isn't just the Mormans, although they were the most public component who dumped big money into passing this abomination.  Many Christians were behind it.

My one consolation is that this discriminatory Amendment will one day (soon hopefully) be overturned and stripped from our Constitution.  Time is on our side.


[ Parent ]
I agree
You want to be active and influence elections, fine.  Pay your taxes like the rest of us.

[ Parent ]
this doesn't make sense
I absolutely reject the notion that white LGBTs are to blame for African-American homophobia, that their bigotry can be blamed on our failure to educate.

Who is blaming whites for homophobia in the black community. No one caused the homophobia, but it is the responsibility of all of us to do that outreach to change hearts and minds.

My point is that the discomfort that many whites have about race (little exposure to and no deep personal relationships with any POC) has an impact on dealing with communities of color when it comes to outreach. That results in a failure to educate. That's not an indictment of whites or dropping the "racist bomb", it simply partially explains why you see few POC at the head of LGBT organizations (or even populating those staffs).

It's much the same as straight people are more comfortable with LGBTs -- and our issues -- if they know someone who is LGBT. The discomfort melts away.  


[ Parent ]
How Pam?
How can white gay people "do outreach" in conservative black religious communities?

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

[ Parent ]
the same way secular black people do outreach
We all must do it as we do with other constituencies. I don't pretend to have an answer, I'm asking that we open up a dialogue about the hurdles that exist but we rarely discuss.

After all, I am a non-practicing Episcopalian. I have views and life experience that differs from the "churched." Just because I am black doesn't give me any special power to communicate to the social conservative black religious community. But we obviously have let this community be off the education radar because of assumptions and discomfort with engaging those who are different, then it creates a vicious cycle.

In fact, you could say that a white/Latino, etc. person of faith might have a better chance at breaking through this barrier than an unchurched person of color, but maybe not. Perhaps the best conduit is through members of the LGBT black religious community.

We need to have those strategic discussions instead of writing them off completely. If we truly believe every vote counts (and the black community is otherwise mostly politically aligned with progressive views), then to avoid a group out of discomfort makes no sense.  


[ Parent ]
I don't think there's write-off or avoidance
I think there's mostly a lack of effective political infrastructure for waging the battle within the black community.  The political network for AAs has historically been the church, and it's mostly segregated and closed to outside influence.  Only recently have there been any alternative ways to be connected.

We need viable, integrated institutions through which we can have conversations together about any number of things.  Presumably, President Obama's huge number of campaign activists are not suddenly going to decide they're now uninterested in politics, so that's possibly where that future begins.

CA seems to be the first time we've actually had a serious commitment on our behalf from the wider progressive coalition at all.  It's heartbreaking we fell short, but I don't really see it as an indication that we're on the wrong track.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto


[ Parent ]
So much of it boils down to religion
I have close colleagues who love me as a person, who I would and do trust with my life, people who love me as a person but who just will not be persuaded to go against what "the Bible says."  They pray I will repent and find Jesus, and anything that might make me "more comfortable in the sin" should be avoided at all costs.  I'm a good person, they say, and "we're all sinners," they add.  Nevertheless, if their preacher says to vote against gay marriage because it might help gay people see the error of their ways, well then they are going to vote against it.

There is no arguing logic against religion, especially if the religious person knows that the proponent of the other side is not someone who "believes."  They simply do not see the treatment of gay people as oppression.  They see it as "refusing to give government approval to a sinful lifestyle."  All the science in the world will not convince someone who believes that way, any more than science has succeeded in converting the bibilical literalists who believe the earth was created 4,000 years ago in six days and that dinosaurs were saved on Noah's Ark.

I'm not saying it's hopeless, just that more than anything we need religious leaders to speak out, and reach out, if we want to change hearts.  I just don't see that happening, as long as we're considered "sinners."

The only way to get change quickly would be a sweeping decision from the Supreme Court.  Otherwise, it's a matter of waiting for the old guard to die, with us being tortured all the while by humiliating biannual get-out-the-vote political spectacles (I know! Let's call for a vote on whether or not gay people can teach in public schools!).  

It's so discouraging.  I hope that President Obama will consider us when he is making appointments to the Supreme Court and that President Obama will have many such appointment opportunities.  

Or maybe religious leaders will see the light.

Cross your fingers.  Pun intended.


[ Parent ]
I think that question touches on something that everyone forgets
Why in the world are white gay people "outreach" in conservative black religious communities before they do ourtreach in black gay communities?

I saw this in SC during our amendment fight. Those fighting the amendments was talking about trying to reach the black churches. But in doing so, they were totally ignoring the black gay communities. Why is that?


[ Parent ]
Thank you
It's a bit outlandish to prioritize the black churches before making the sale at the black bars, and dance clubs, and GLBT parents' support groups.

I say this with all respect for the political and organizing power of Oakland's church ladies. They are mighty indeed. But how in the world is a white GLBT movement going to connect with them when that movement has failed to connect with their GLBT children?

To win our equality we need everybody inside the tent pissin' out, in the words of LBJ. So what did the No campaign do to bring in the 40-some percent of black same-sex couples raising kids? I guess I blinked during the ad they ran on BET, showing Sharon and Tenisha and their three kids working on their yard and getting dressed for school.

Trust me, these families exist. It didn't have to be like this. We can do better.

But wait, there's more!


[ Parent ]
Apologies
I misunderstood you in a previous comment. This, though:

But how in the world is a white GLBT movement going to connect with them when that movement has failed to connect with their GLBT children?

Pretty much sums up what I've been trying to say.


[ Parent ]
Oh, no apologies.
We're going to get there, but we have to be rigorous on each other and ourselves about what's driving us.

I learned a lot at the knee of some Oakland church ladies.

One thing that was confirmed by the best book about the civil rights movement David Halberstam ever wrote, The Children, is that you move mothers through their children.

I wouldn't care that much about my marriage being recognized if I didn't have a child to worry about. The fact that the campaign didn't show our kids, even though the ads were shot and produced and were just devastating to the claim that the bad guys were the ones protecting families--that's sad.


But wait, there's more!


[ Parent ]
Outreach?
The belief that white=gay is big part of the problem, and as long as black LGBTs are invisible in their own communities and there is a dearth of color in the public face of LGBT leadership, the socially conservative black community can remain in denial that I exist as a black lesbian.

So they feel comfortable voting to deny me my rights because I'm white and they're not? Is that what you're saying here? Exactly how is this better or even different than the stupid rednecks who wouldn't vote for Obama because of his skin color?

I know I'm pissed off, and I know I'm thinking a lot of things that I'll take back later, but I really want to know how this is supposed to be a wake up call to me or to anyone else who was stripped of their rights yesterday because of THE COLOR OF MY SKIN?

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing


No ...
We are stripped of our rights because of the stranglehold religion has on this country. It's not like African-American Christians are singlehandedly denying us equality; it takes a whole lot of white Christians to make that happen.

It's just adding insult to injury, though -- and a racist insult at that -- when people suggest that African-Americans can be excused for being homophobic because they think gay people are white.


[ Parent ]
I am conflicted about this
I can't blame a race, or even a whole religion, for passing a hateful measure, because it ultimately comes down to the millions of biggots who voted yes.

But there's a problem I have with your argument here, and I suspect that I am misinterpreting you. Yes, there is a huge problem of racism within the LGBT community (as with most communities). But are you really arguing that blacks voted Yes on 8 because of that racism? That argument makes no sense. The homophobia of the black community is an endogenous problem, and can't be so easily explained. And it's a problem gays of all races cannot easily solve.  


I answered your point above.
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/...

My comments -- and your reaction -- are what keep the discussion about the lack of communication between white establishment and communities of color lead to less information being disseminated. This can be addressed if people own up to their their implicit biases. We all have them. It doesn't make anyone evil, it only needs to be named and accounted for so we can all move forward.

Too often the reaction to my raising this is defensiveness and a run to see the extreme rather than a request that we stop hiding from hurdles we have in our movement.

Who is supposed to educate the religious black community - is it only a "black problem" to be dealt with by the LGBT blacks already underrepresented in our orgs? That's my fear. As a community we stress the support we need from allies. It's sad that when it comes to this scenario, everyone runs for cover. It's time to talk, not retreat to corners.


[ Parent ]
Nothing about rdm's "reaction" is defensive or "extreme"
"It's time to talk, not retreat to corners."

The assumptions you're making and your tone are contributing to misunderstanding, I think.  I know that's not your goal.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto


[ Parent ]
Pam is right but...
There's more to this story.

No On 8 did not make a serious effort to engage minority communities, including Latinos, Asians, Pacific Islanders, African Americans and others. There were a few last minute radio and TV ads but that won't cut it. They never made a serious attempt to engage the homophobic institutions in minority communities.

They left the field of battle as is those communities didn't count and that explains the vote. If you don't fight you don't win.

The bigotry of Obama and McCain, the timidity of people like Feinstein, Schwarzenegger and others combined to allow bigots to galvanize a vote against us.

The No On 8 leadership simply defaulted, just as similar people did in 2000. They should have known how powerful the message 'god's in the mix' would be, and probably did, but they refused to call Obama and McCain on their open and often repeated bigotry.

We need to be clear that it was primarily the bigotry of EuroAmericans voters that beat us in all three states.

The self appointed leaders of the anti-8 forces didn't have any idea how to build a mass movement or how to accumulate and work with allies. The unions, the NAACP and MALDEF were our loyal friends in all this but they can't to the job for us.

Our 'leadership' failed because they refused to take on the political bigots and refused, for the most part, to go after the bigots in minority communities, exposing them and debating them, doing mass leafleting, organizing demonstrations and rallies.

This kind of battle is most successful when led by democratic, grass roots organizations with a mass action perspective. And they have to be independent of the Democrats and Republican, while willing to accept their help.  

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  


yes.
That's the whole point. If you don't engage, then there will be no change in those communities. We are throwing votes away by doing this and it creates a vicious cycle.

[ Parent ]
Ask Obama for educational funding
The faith-based funding initiatives of the current Bush Administration provide financial incentives for black preachers to promote a marriage agenda that's hostile to gays and lesbians, through federal programs such as the $1.5 billion Healthy Marriage Initiative. That initiative provides funding to religious groups, mostly in inner-city areas, to promote "healthy marriages," defined as "married families with two biological parents.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

[ Parent ]
great idea, Charles
It's time to think outside of the box and address education about civil rights, and to break the conflation of religious and civil marriage (and that includes Obama and other Dems who have made public statements reinforcing it).

[ Parent ]
That vicious cycle is going to kick us all in the ass soon...

Minorities are always hardest hit in bad times, and this recession is almost guaranteed to spiral into a repeat of the Great Depression.

The stock market's whipsawing, saving has stopped, credit is tight, Obama's bailout is being wasted buying the worthless debt of failed companies, unemployment is soaring and the economy is beginning to contract, to feed on itself. It took two years after the 1929 crach to contract into a depression, and no one knows how long it'll take this time.

When things get tough both GLBT folks and African Americans learn the terrible meaning of "Last hired, first Fired." This time around will be no different except it'll include immigrants and Latinos.

Before that happens we have to find ways to bypass our  self appointed liberal leaderships and find ways to work with our allies, on an organizational/political level as well as on a personal level. We absolutely cannot afford to let "Divide and Rule" come between us. We'll fight together or wel'll hang together.

A good way to start is to begin demonstrating our anger at these amendments, targeting the cults and politicians  responsible for their passage. One is already scheduled in Chi-town and others can easily be arranged on a local level. Then we can see about Marchs on Washington, Sacramento, Phoenix and Tallahassee. These pigs have to be taught that there are consequences for their bigotry.

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  


[ Parent ]
More to it than that
I agree with you, Pam, about the problem that exists in the LGBT community -- and its professional leaders -- in regard to race, and there should have been more of a concerted effort to reach out to the minority communities of this state.  However, there is so much more to what happened here than that.  EQCA was begging for $$ up to the very end, and the influx of funds didn't happen nearly as soon as the Mormons.  They were fighting an uphill battle.

I'm 54, white, Bay Area resident, who has 11 relatives living here, too.  Older and younger.  I begged them to donate.  All of them.  The older people are middle class to upper middle class.  The younger people are working, and have money and time -- in fact my niece went to CO to volunteer for Obama over the past week.  Did any of them donate a cent?  No.  Why?  "Don't worry about it, Beck, Prop 8 will never pass."  Complacency on the part of our non-LGBT friends and relatives is what I fault.

When you're fighting an opponent who starts the fight disseminating lies upon lies upon lies, who cheats, and extorts, and uses every bully tactic in the book including violence -- things got very ugly and nasty up here over the past 2 weeks -- and when the media insists upon airing every single Yes On 8 rally (Wow! Look at all of those happy faces all telling you to vote yes!), and NOT telling people that NO means you support gay marriage (many people were confused about it, by some estimates 2% of the electorate would be), and that Obama does NOT support Prop 8 (many people thought they were doing the right thing by Obama by voting Yes)..... ETC., then it's nearly impossible to win.  Not impossible, but nearly so.

I don't feel it's right to put any blame on the black turnout for Obama.  But I also don't put blame on EQCA, which has never had a huge coffer of $, and only the bare bones of a grass roots organization to start.  It was weeks before there really were any No On 8 offices anywhere.  The $ didn't roll in until maybe 3 weeks ago.

That's the race that I've been watching, and supporting, and reading about on my mailing list of 1000+ lesbians up here.  I could give you anecdote after anecdote about what the Yes people have been up to.  I'm angry, and hurt, and frustrated, and so damned tired of being the last in line for equal rights.  I've been married 4 times to my wife over the past 20 years.  If our latest (last week) comes out intact, good for me, but big whup, because my brothers and sisters who fall in love a year from now will be shit out of luck.  And that makes me heartsick.

 

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony,reformer and suffragist (1820-1906)


Prop 8 had less money
NoOnProp8 raised two million dollars more than Yes on Prop 8.  It wasn't for lack of money that we lost. (source LA Times)

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

[ Parent ]
That's not really a relevant factoid in the end, imo
It isn't a matter of ultimately how much money was raised by both sides.  The Yes folks had millions to start with, and they blanketed the media with their lie-filled ads, and this went on for weeks before No was able to answer, and then the answer wasn't disseminated at the same rate/level/whatever, and it wasn't until very recently that the $$ came in.  From what I've seen here, that was way too late to change people's perceptions.

Look -- the Yes people put out an ad weeks ago that said that Obama supported Prop. 8.  The Obama campaign issued a statement (that most of CA never heard) saying that was wrong.  No On 8 put up a banner on their website saying Obama didn't support the amendment.  Like that was going to reach the masses.  At least a week later, an ad finally went out telling people that he didn't support the amendment.

People who were leafletting at the polls said that at least half of the people they talked to thought that Obama supported the amendment and that's why they did, too.  It wasn't until they got the flyer saying he didn't that they changed their vote.  How many more people thought the same thing, at how many more polling places that were never covered??  How many more people thought the same thing who never stopped to talk to the No group??

It's not the final tally of $$ that counts, it's when you have it in your hand and what you then have to spend it on that counts.  If nothing else, the Obama campaign should have taught us that.

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony,reformer and suffragist (1820-1906)


[ Parent ]
Organization
I do have some issues with the organization, primarily the lack thereof. My wife and I had our wedding registry with EQCA, and over half of the people who said they wanted to donate came back and were confused by the website, and weren't sure whether they were supposed to give through EQCA or No on 8. I was never entirely clear on that, and I think I ended up giving money to both; I'm certainly on three different mailing lists now.

The other side was better organized, with a single, clear message--even though it was all based on lies.  


[ Parent ]
Engage, indeed.
I am very engaged, and let me tell you what it's like to engage.

I work in public health, specifically dealing with HIV and STD. There is a rift in public health that has long been developing.  You see, back in the early 90s when crack was epidemic in the black community, syphilis and (to a lesser extent) HIV followed it around.  A lot of black folks got into public health to help their communities -- which is excellent.  And the result is that syphilis infection rates have come down significantly in black populations as compared to white populations -- though that disparity isn't all the way gone by any measure.

Here in this new century, public health is now seeing an influx of gay people, because HIV and syphilis are now hitting gay men hard -- and man-loving black men hardest.

These two groups are in conflict.  And, from where I sit, it's not as much about race as it is about religion.  For many black people, the church is the center of the community.  The church sets the agenda when it comes to morality and social norms for a lot of people.  And the church is loud and clear on what it thinks of GLBT people.  And from discussing this issue with black people who work in public health, let me tell you that there is no arguing belief.  People are anti-gay because of a religious belief that is not based on rational thought, and it is well-nigh impossible to have a rational discussion about treating GLBT people equally in this context.  I have tried over, and over, and over again.  And if you compare the struggle of sexual minorities for civil rights to that of black people, be prepared -- you will be insulted, laughed at, sworn at...I could go on.

Let us not lay all the blame at the foot of the white gays for not reaching out and reaching beyond their comfort zone.  Many have tried, and find that religion is truly the brick wall they can't surmount.  Meanwhile, black people are still very, very busy denying that the sexism and homophobia propagated by the churches in their community lead to continued denial and lack of action with regard to issues like HIV.  The church is still almost infallible, and that's the elephant in their room.  And for those well burned by that religious brick wall when they have tried to reach an understanding, please don't lynch them for being once bitten, twice shy.  Or perhaps a hundred times bitten and very, very reluctant.

So -- did black voters help pass Prop 8?  It's likely that, yes, they did.  Do they deserve all the "blame"?  Of course not.  I think there should be a protest campaign to shame the Mormon church for the greatest sham in history -- a church that didn't know what "traditional marriage" was until they were forced to figure it out before they could join the USA...and now suddenly they're the defenders of traditional marriage?  No...they're purveyors of hate.  And they should be exposed.  So should the Knights of Columbus.

Race relations should be examined in the gay community itself -- of course.  Relations between black people and gay people -- and how we can save some of the people so badly caught in the overlap of the religious-based bigotry -- are something that needs a lot of work.  But let's not sit there and blame just the white gays.  This is a two-way street.


Religion
Yep, seemingly for this ballot initiative is the biggest opponent..White for the money part and more.  
Elsie, great summary of the conflict.

[ Parent ]
What is the Law?
If the California State Supreme Court found an inherent right in the Constitution to marriage, can even a referendum deprive people of that right?  

Any Blender lawyers out there, or people conversant with CA's constitution?  Won't someone challenge the consitutionality of the amendment, and isn't the court already prepared to overturn it?

In a weird turn, CA went conservative on this, while far less progressive Michigan approved two propositions, one legalizing medical marijuana, the other stem cell research.  I expected both to lose.  

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report


An amendment by deifnition is constitutional
It doesn't matter that it conflicts with something else, because as the last thing added, it takes precedence. It can't be found to violate the CA constitution. In theory it could be found to violate the US Constitution, but since no federal court has done so, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.  Effort is better spent working on repeal of Prop 8.  Given the trend, we're about 2-4 years off from doing that.  Remember that a gay marriage ban passed with over 60% of the vote just 6 years earlier.  The opposition is either dying off or being won over.

I also wonder how differently the vote might have gona had we not lost nearly an entire generation of gay men to AIDS, thus lowering the number of older voters who actually know a gay person.


[ Parent ]
Are you sure?
Didn't a California State Supreme Court lead the way in allowing inter-racial marriage?

What if an amendment banning inter-racial marriage passed?

Wouldn't that violate the state constituion as interpreted by the court?

My point is: can a right be taken away, which is ipso facto what this amendment has done.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report


[ Parent ]
If an amendment banning inter-racial marriage passed
It would be nullified by the FEDERAL courts as in conflict with the Loving v. Virginia decision.  Interracial marriage is protected under the federal constitution and states cannot overturn that.

But an amendment to a document can't, by definition, be in conflict with that document.  As the latest thing added, it is "the last word."  It could be in conflict with something higher - e.g. the federal constitution - and struck down on that basis.  But nobody currently interprets the US constitution as protecting same-sex marriage.

So the CA Supreme Court cannot overturn the CA amendment as being in violation of the CA Constitution.  And it was under the CA Constitution, not the federal, that the CA Supreme Court found a right to same-sex marriage.  Had the CA Supreme Court ruled that it was the federal constitution that protected same-sex marriage, that decision would have been subject to review by federal courts and most likely rejected.


[ Parent ]
Timelines
The original CA Supreme Court ruling came a decade before Loving v. Virginia.  So there was a time frame in there.

My only hope in the Federal courts is something relating to Colorado's Amendment 2 ruling.  

# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #


[ Parent ]
Yes and no
I've become obsessed about this and tracked down every attorney I could find for the last several months. Distilled and paraphrased: There are two ways to change the California Constitution, an amendment and a revision. An amendment is an addition to the Constitution, like Prop 13. The original Constitution didn't say anything about property taxes, so Prop 13 amended it to include that limit. A revision is when you're going to change what the Constitution already says and make it say something else. Before the election the No on 8 group went to court to argue that since the ruling, Prop 8 was no longer an amendment, it was a revision. The court dismissed the case without comment, leaving it open to be filed again. I understand that's normal, but there's never been a case precisely like this before. When the signatures were gathered, Prop 8 was firmly in amendment territory. Once the court had ruled, it was a gray area. I expect it will be challenged, not on the wording but on the way it was passed. The Supremes may or may not strike it down.

So no, the fight isn't over. The fight isn't even properly begun, because there's still between 2 and 3 million absentee and provisional ballots to count. The difference between passing and not passing for Prop 8 is currently about a half a million votes. It may fail, by the slimmest of margins. If it passes it will be challenged and the court may strike it down. If neither of those things happen, it'll be part of the Constitution and it'll take a revision (legislature, higher percentage of votes required to pass) to get rid of it. In other words, it won't happen in our lifetimes.

And no matter how it turns out, Mr. IBMIBAMAAW will never get my support again.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing


[ Parent ]
While we're being honest here
I have to say that to me, a white lesbian, reading that the black community overwhelmingly opposes marriage equality certainly stings.  Not only that, it angers me.  I strongly supported Obama and watching his speech last night, in light of our nation's history of racial injustice, brought tears to my eyes.  I see now that I have taken it for granted that other people facing injustice recognize and have compassion for the injustice that other people face.

It's true that white voters and contributers put far more votes and resources into Prop 8 than did black voters, but this is certainly a wake-up call.  Thanks Pam, for highlighting this.  Let's keep the discussion moving.  


Disappointment and Blame
I too am very disappointed and angry that Prop. 8 passed. Partially for the personal reasons of not being able to enjoy the ability to marry my partner, part because of the opinion that 1/2 of my fellow California citizens are ok with denying LGBT community the rights that everyone else take for granted.

So yes it's a time to be saddened and angry. We can assess what we should have done better and who needed to be reached and educated. We also know that some people beliefs and prejudices allow them to support denying our rights and our relationships.

I feel that it's wrong to start to look for which group to blame and take our disappointment out on. We could blame ourselves for not working harder. We can blame religious groups, older people, or the African-American community. Unfortunately, I think that turning around and countering their hatred for us with hatred towards them brings us down to the level.

In the 60's, Martin Luther King urged non-violent and to rise above the feeling to hate and to fight despising  people. Not to fight someone in the gutter because you'll have to lower yourself. Not to react to hatred with hatred. Realize that they have lowered themselves in order to take away others rights and deny our humanity.

I think that many people in California were persuaded by the mean spirited arguments made against same sex marriage. By the "god supports trad. marriage", protect the children, the spector of Armageddon, their corruption of religion, and the campaign tricks. We should be proud that we didn't stoop to their level. That we tried to show that it was about fairness and equality and treating our families like everyone else. We showed MANY Californians  who we are and that didn't require for us to lie and debase ourselves like the opposition.

We need to know that, despite this loss, equality will continue to move in our directions. The path is long but over time justice will move our way.

The fight will shift to the national level with the election of Obama. He and some of our democratic politicians have said that they will support civil unions and the repeal of DOMA. We will need to hold them to their words.

My heart goes out to all of us who feel the political and personal loss. Be proud of the fight we fought and how we fought it, be proud of the 5000+ couples who celebrated their love and showed California who we are. Be glad that we now have a president who can see us as citizens who deserve the rights that others take for granted [Barack's experience informs him in ways that none of the other previous Presidents could.]

Just know that no matter what the bigots and the haters do, we will continue to live ours lives with an integrity.

Grahame


I agree ...
that the "separate but equal" approach embraced by Obama and some other Democrats is far preferable to the even more reprehensible approach of the Christian Right and their Republican Party.

Furthermore, if America condescends to grant us civil unions, I will, to protect my husband, swallow my convictions and consent to registering my marriage as a second-class relationship that's not quite a marriage.

But I'm going to have a lot of trouble being happy about it, and I'm going to have a lot of trouble convincing myself that accepting that separate and therefore unequal status is an act of integrity.


[ Parent ]
Glad?
Be glad that we now have a president who can see us as citizens who deserve the rights that others take for granted

I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage.

Can I borrow your rose-colored glasses? Mine must be broken.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing


[ Parent ]
maybe you can get mine repaired
i ran them over in my truck. 11 times.

But wait, there's more!

[ Parent ]
SEPARATE BUT EQUAL
Civil Unions were a long and hard fought-for achievement to accommodate gay and lesbian relations.

This has nothing to do with the "separate but equal" notion from segregation where a dying black person can't get treatment in the emergency room of a white-only hospital.

The difference between "marriage" and "civil union" is a word -  nothing more.

Nothing about it implies we are second class citizens.

Living in Alabama, I'd sure be happy enough to have civil unions like in Britain where you have all the same rights as married couples.

Is it really worth suffering all these defeats and handing the religious racketeers an issue over a word?


[ Parent ]
asdf
The difference between "marriage" and "civil union" is a word -  nothing more.

Well, that and 200+ years of legal precedent.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing


[ Parent ]
Wow
I mean- why didn't you put up a stat in regard to hispanic voters- who actually have real influence in California? I do believe that organized religion is to blame to a large degree but NOT in every case. People being non-religious can not always be equated with progressive thinking or fairness.

Since you are Black- at least I won't agrue that you have no clue because every Black person I know seems to hold your view about homophobia in Black America. Lots of negative things about female sexuality in general as well. I think you should acknowledge also that there is a great deal of racism in the LBGT world. Especially in large urban areas of the U.S.


the link in the post shows Latino stats
The Latino vote was not remarkably higher that the white vote - around 50/50.

There is racism in the LGBT community, but I think the real issues to address are unexamined white privilege and black defensiveness. Both are responsible for the silence.

People being non-religious can not always be equated with progressive thinking or fairness.

Of course, no group is completely monolithic.

NOTE: CNN has full national exit polls and found that 4% of respondents identified as LGB, and of those 70% voted for Obama; 27% for McCain(!) and 3 percent for other/no answer.



[ Parent ]
Bleah.
And how many of that 27% were white? 100%? 99%?

You want to know why white queers can't reach out to the black community? Seriously? 27% of us can't even reach out to the gay community!

Gay white racists and black homophobes have no excuse. Both groups ought to know better. But gay Republicans are worse than Pat Robertson.


[ Parent ]
Exit polls
After looking at CNN exit polls on Prop 8, it seems the African-American Community led the way on pro 8 votes.  Highest % of ANY group were the African-American pro 8 voters.

As has been said, many LGBT folks have crashed against the homophobic bigotry of the Black Community  --  not just the Black Churches.

How many African-American Gay folks remain closeted in their own community?  How many are AFRAID to come out to family and friends?  

Any time bigotry is an ARTICLE Of FAITH, there is no way to "convince" BELIEVERS.  That attitude seems to carry through the Black Community.

Not being willing to confront this issue  --  by Black Gay-Folks, and MSM (but NEVER "gay") means we LGBT folks will never Have EQUAL rights with other "citizens".

By the way, how many Gay Black Men with AIDS are actually AFRAID to go to a Dr. in the Black Community?  The overall attitude of the Black Community towards AIDS has been negative and counter productive.  Denial leading to untold deaths and infections.    


the black closet
How many African-American Gay folks remain closeted in their own community?  How many are AFRAID to come out to family and friends?  

Too many. Visibility matters, but there are cultural forces at work that explain, not excuse, this. Black LGBTs are marginalized with the larger LGBT community. Until there is a safe space for POC to come out and feel welcomed -- or even comfortable with -- the dominant LGBT community, many remain in the closet to maintain a social/cultural/faith circle.

As I said, that doesn't make it healthy or right, but it does explain the phenomenon. Again, it's whether we all want to address the reality of the situation and work together to make coming out of the closet a realistic possibility for these individuals.  


[ Parent ]
Right on Pam
Pam,

just wanted to say that you make a tremendous point. In this marriage equality fights, the gay community at large seem to always miss the opportunity to reach out to GAY BLACK PEOPLE.

Mind you I did not say black churches or black conservative communities. Black gays can do a lot to get the message out to the church communities.


Yes, It Does, and More
The results in California provide a few lessons for us who hope for the right to marry the person we love.

They show that media-campaigning is never enough. Taking pages from the Obama playbook would be a great idea for us. We cannot simply rely on "big-pockets" enabling us to buy tv, web and radio/tv space for our cause.

We need the human-contact part on a much larger scale. Not simply must we go door-to-door in Black and Hispanic enclaves, but into white and yes, even redneck areas as well.

A young woman walked through my apartment complex yesterday morning. She didn't live here and would have no fore-knowledge probably that the complex-demographic id probably the most "mixed" of places in the surrounding area: lesbian, gay, white, black, brown, people from other countries living together.

She walked from door-to-door handing our Obama literature and urging those who answered her rings of their doorbells to go vote, that it was very important.

The young woman was black, walking through a veritable sea of white homes here in SE PA. She hadn't confined her energy to places where everyone looked like her, or voted like she would prolly vote, For Bucks County has a sizeable number of Repugs.

That is the problem with our LTBG coalitions and how we interact with others.

I know we often fear our receptions. There are realistic fears that in some areas we might be subject to harassment or even assaults.

Yet, we can also put human faces, human personalities on display for other human beings to show many that we are not simply faceless and inhuman monstrosities who would eat their children.

THAT seems to me to be the most important lesson we can learn by the unanimous defeats of the positions we backed yesterday.

The gay/lesbian/bi/trans winners in the local and state races, for the U.S. House showed their faces. We tended to show our faces only to those like us. For the rest we made posters and hoped that ads would suffice.

I think it's time we larned that nothing worth achieving comes without some sacrifice. Black folk have learned that about themselves. LTBG people need to embrace that self-same knowledge and put our butts in places we fear to go. Until we do so, it's simply too easy for the opposition to ramp-up the fears of their current supporters.  


Sorry, no blaming the victims
You don't get to say that black people are discriminated against and it's their fault.  You don't get to say that Latinos are discriminated against and it's their own fault.  You don't get to say that we're discriminated against and it's our own fault.  Just like you don't get to blame rape victims because they were dressed too attractively.  It's crap at the heart.

# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #


[ Parent ]
Bad URL Link
To check on the latest returns, here's another link to try:
http://vote.sos.ca.gov/props/i...

Also, keep in mind that late absentee and provisional ballots meant as many as 3 million ballots were left to be counted after all precinct votes were tallied.

So, I AM NOT GIVING UP HOPE!!! Until that very last vote is counted! It ain't over!

Another thing that disturbs me is that the number of votes cast for all Presidential candidates (Obama+McCain+Others) does not equal the number of votes on Prop. 8 (yes+no), the Presidential votes are higher. So, does that mean that a lot of people did not vote all the way down the ballot? Did they just cast their vote for President and leave?

California:
Voted for President (Obama+McCain+Others) - 10,088,999
Voted for Prop 8 (yes + no) - 10,013,567

Difference of 75,432 votes!

Now, if those were "Yes" votes, then good riddance.

But, what if they were "NO" votes!!!???

"Every time an ambulance passes it is either someone who opposes gay rights dying or someone who supports them being born."
~ Christopher Hayes


Voting all the way down
When I voted (Ventura County) I was handed two ballots. One for elected officials, one for the other stuff like Measure U and Prop 8.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

[ Parent ]
Two Separate Ballots!!!
Yikes!!!

How many people would ignore the "other stuff" ballot as irrelevant and just on the one for elected officials!

That could explain the 75,432 missing votes!

Either that or some people couldn't vote yes or no, so they just left it blank!

"Every time an ambulance passes it is either someone who opposes gay rights dying or someone who supports them being born."
~ Christopher Hayes


[ Parent ]
I realize this are just anecdotal examples, but...
I worked a polling station in Culver City for No on 8 for the majority of the day until the polls closed, and amongst many, many expressions of support, these were the two negative experiences that registered with me:

--My team captain approached an African-American man to hand him a No on 8 palm card, and when he explained that Prop 8 would take away his right to marry, the man said--and I quote, "You don't deserve any rights."  My team captain was so stunned by this, he didn't know how to answer.  (Later, he admitted he was tempted to say, "Yeah, they said the same thing back in 1850 to people like you," but he thought better of it.)

--Almost all of the people identified as Yes on 8 voters were of Hispanic descent.  They also all arrived as married couples with one or more children, and the wives--without exception--refused to look at me or even acknowledge my presence.

Oh, and also without exception... all the Yes on 8 people were very mean and angry.  This isn't a stereotype... this was exactly how it was all day long.  By contrast, us No on 8 people are happy, upbeat... even perky.  That's the crowd I want to hang with. :-)

But I'm very, very disappointed in this outcome.  I expected better from CA.


the refuse to look at you thing
i've had taht happen to me too by both black and hispanic religious groups in lgbt protest situations.  sometimes i think it's because they are afraid to engage with the crafty devil who might work through me, and other times i think it symbolizes their total disdain for my existence, which is beneath them to acknowledge.

one time i was so frustrated with this form of "you don't exist" that i decided to stand there and have a "conversation" with the young woman who refused to look at me.  i no longer remember what i said exactly, but it was along the lines of simple truths like "you know what, i'm a good person.  it is ok to look at me because we are both human beings.  my family loves me like your family loves you." etc.  she eventually started crying and left the demonstration.  

Lurleen on Twitter


[ Parent ]
Gee
You should imagine what it feels like to be a black LGBT person going into a white LGBT place and see how many times people look past or refuse to "look at you."

Sucks, doesn't it?  


[ Parent ]
yes it does suck.
and i can imagine because i've experienced it. i will never do that to another human being. well, maybe bush or cheney, if we ever chance to meet...

Lurleen on Twitter

[ Parent ]
Slice and Dice the Prop 8 Results
Yes, there are lots of ways to interpret the results of the elimination of LGBT civil rights in CA.  Certainly the Mormons, the Knights of Columbus, the Roman Catholic bishops, and the evangelical Christians all played a significant role.  And maybe the campaign against Prop.8 could have done things differently - had better ads, done more door-to-door, etc.

But right now in this day that should be a day of national triumph and joy not only African-Americans but all Americans, I'm struck by a really deep sadness.  The exit polling showing the overwhelming support for taking away our rights by African-Americans - and particularly African-American women - may not have entirely doomed Prop. 8.  But it's awfully distressing that the Rosa Parks of today have determined that there is plenty of room in the back of the bus - and that back of the bus if for us!

Maybe it just points to something troubling about human nature.  I can't enjoy moving to the front of the bus without the satisfaction of knowing that someone else has to stay there.  

I'm so depressed - talk me down please!


I'll try...
I cried myself to sleep last night.  I took a "personal day" off work today (that's with my job not really even having that provision).  I knew I wouldn't be able to handle the elation of the new regime without going over and over the loss of my civil rights, and this to sympathetic co-workers.

We've got to keep talking and talking and being visible.  I'm not hopeful on changing the minds of the religious empowered bigots out there, but there are many more fair minded people who will more easily "hear" that a vote for Prop 8 is a vote against you personally, and your family also, and their co-worker (as in my case today skipping work) and their friends.  

Talk, talk, talk....you know who these people are, expedito, speak up whenever appropriate.  Every moment is a learning moment for those willing to hear, feel, and listen.

(Of course, the more I think of it, randomly picketing or educating at weddings at churches could be a great thing.)


[ Parent ]
Did the same thing
My coworkers are all straight white anti-gay misogynist xtian male entitleprivileged thugs. No way was I going to work today. I'll be in the office alone on Saturday instead.

I can't contribute anything positive to this discussion. I'm still so angry and hurt. So I'll just offer a hug.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
Offering one back
from a straight, married, white middle-aged gal who feels so damned f*cking helpless at the moment- but is never gonna give up fighting until we are all equal.

And wishing like hell that day were TODAY.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."


[ Parent ]
Hey Pam.
As a fellow gay negro who has been arguing with the white LGB's (no T's yet but it's early) online while at work, let me tell you that you hit the nail on the head. I think people are so quick as to forget that the black community is heavily conservative due to the black church and it does not matter what most of us say; if it ain't 'cool with Jesus' then that's how they will vote. there is not distinctin being made between black people and their religious affiliation and I think in a matter like this, it is heavily important because all to often people like to point out THE black community as if we are this entire monolith.

Howevr, as a Black Lesbian, do you find it hard to blame white gay people for their reactions and shock from the results but also from their own hidden prejudices that they never want to admit or face; that maybe it is time for the gay black community to actually stand on its own because it is obvious that mainstream LTBT communities do not always cater to our specific needs and the black community is like most communities uncaring as to our plight? It's like I have to at times question when black LGBTs will be willing to make a community of our own and work with ourselves to educate ours because it seems almost laughable to to expect white people, no less white gay people to understand how to tackle homophobia and hetersexism in black communities. And again, I have to constantly, remind white gay people to know that our rights are being taken away by a colective of communities and organizations that do not like us and to question as to WHY they are so focused on us as if we funded the damn thing, I also have to wonder when are black LGBTs going to step up and try and take care of their community and to change things. I know there are many black gay organizatins but at times like these it's like you have to wonder where are or efforts going.

These are just simple thoughts going through my head right now as I decipher whats going on in a state where I don't even live, when not even my own offers me the chance of civil unions.

But whatevs.


We're not monolithic, either
do you find it hard to blame white gay people for their reactions and shock from the results but also from their own hidden prejudices that they never want to admit or face

I am shocked that a group who is still fighting for their own equality would vote to deny another group's. Hidden prejudices? Hell, I know I have them. I was raised Mormon, I grew up breathing in racism like air. My parents still think Loving v. Virginia was a bad ruling. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to face my prejudices, it just means I'm myopic and can't ever be sure whether I've found them all on my own.  

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing


[ Parent ]
Here's the thing..
And again, like you said it is important to analyze why blacks are voting like this, but in the eyes of most black people, it's almost as if it is viewed as if this is a religious discussion and not a idea that people are fighting for rights. That's how the religious institutions present it to them and that is how they vote. they do not see gay people (who again, are distant culturally) as being victimize or see themselves as having the power to oppress.

I mean as long as we are eating and appear relatively fine, they don't even view it as taking away rights as they do standing for 'god' or whatever. It's like cognitive dissonance. it's not a 'taking away of rights' to them at all. they do see property taxes or spousal benefits. Like. At. All.

And that's the big problem.

But god, I did not know mormons felt that way about black people... I mean to be fair my knowldge of the Mormons is fairly limited because they were the 'enemies' in my religion (I'm from the Land of the Other Doorknockers).


[ Parent ]
Until 1978
well after I was born, blacks couldn't hold the priesthood (a prerequisite to holding any church position) because they had the mark of Cain and were cursed. Southern Utah in the 30s up through the 60s was a hotbed of KKK activity. I grew up in a town where the first black person - ever - moved there in about 1983. She was married to a (white) cop that had been recruited for the local force. They moved 6 months later, and there's not a doubt in my mind that he wouldn't have been hired if they'd met his wife before they hired him. They certainly got rid of him as fast as they could once they had met her.

One of my dad's favorite funny lines (and he's not racist because some of his best friends are black) is "you did that almost as good as a white man". He says it when someone completes a task especially well.

There's nothing special about racism against blacks, though. Mormons are just as prejudiced against Native Americans, for pretty much the same reason. They're descendants of Laman (Lamanites), the evil brother of Nephi (the white Nephites) who were killed off in the Americas long before Columbus got here. Their skin color is another curse because Laman was such a bad guy. The Book of Mormon is taken from the Golden Plates - a diary kept by the Nephites and buried in a hill until Joseph Smith found them and translated them with his Magic Eyeglasses.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing


[ Parent ]
Now that is...
Some special ish right there. And I thought my religion was fun!


[ Parent ]
What to do?
I've seen one suggestion about funding in the thread so far.  It's an interesting one.  And as Sportin points out above, the fight against Prop 8 involved a broad range of progressive support.  More of that please.

My question is this: what do I, as a gay, white, atheist do to reach out?

I'd love to do something personal. I wish I could find an org that would let me sign up to invite conservative Christians over to my house for dinner. I would love them to see my life and what they're trying to protect themselves from. Sometimes, it's harder to discriminate against real people. Sometimes. I know that reads a bit head-in-the-clouds, but I'm much more effective and comfortable showing people something than I am telling people something.


Electricity's for light bulbs!


The outreach to LATINO voters was just as bad
I tried to help out with Spanish speaking calls to voters.  Lori Jeane mailed me and forwarded me to the contact in charge of phone banks.  I sent many emails asking about the dates and location of phone banks.  But I never received a phone call.  I just gaved up.

I was willing and ready to help, especially with spanish-speaking phone calls, but no one responded to my email.  A very badly managed phone banking group I must say.


Prejudice
Damnit!  I'm almost 70 and white.  My parents were immigrants and hated EVERYONE.  They were Roman Catholic, from a small Croatian village.  EVERYONE was Catholic there, no diversity at all, along with strict social control, and little respect for women.

Growing up I had to confront the bigotry I was indoctrinated with  --  from thoughtless Anti-Semitism, to ethnic prejudice, religious prejudice, and total racism.

First I had to recognize my defects.  Then I had to take action, along with self criticism.  I think EVERYONE in our society has been poisoned by various forms of bigotry.  Unless we are willing to do a lot of soul searching, unless we can be introspective to that level, nothing will ever change.

Denial will not work  --  be it denial from White, Black, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Latino, Asian, South Asian, etc., etc., etc. etc., etc.

Making excuses for ANYONE is just a way to perpetuate the status quo.  It doesn't work.


Yes, this is a wake-up call - for LGBT's on Obama
It was not racism that passed Proposition-8, it was homophobia. As many have pointed out, the core source of Prop-8 bigotry lies at the heart of the Christian and Mormon church, and its hateful message cuts a wide resonant swath across American ethnic communities. Whites, Blacks, and Hispanics have all bought into Christian propaganda and share responsibility for its virulent homophobia.

However, as a prominent Christian and African American, not to mention leader of the Democratic Party, it is Obama who now leads the way for those who seek to block the acceptance of LGBT people in mainstream society. He has shown them how and where to draw the line that keeps us shut out, while betraying absolutely no animosity or prejudice against us personally. This is exactly the balance of benign neglect that homophobic Christian America has been searching for.

Much as Clinton caved on the issue of gays serving openly in the military, Obama undermined his flacid support of LGBT rights with his clear statement that "marriage is between a man and a woman". Obama's self-contradictory formal opposition to Proposition 8 didn't discourage the Yes on 8 campaign. They proudly pictured Obama along with McCain on their advertisements, the two candidates united in support of traditional marriage.

Of course, Obama's lack of conviction on same-sex marriage has been no worse than his running mate's, or for that matter, the Democratic Party's cowardice. But Obama has become the undisputed leader of his Party and an inspiration to all Americans who hope to see the nation make a change for the better. If Obama himself won't muster up the courage to oppose discrimination against LGBT folks, how can anyone expect any more support from Democrats as a whole? Is it not clear that it's an issue that Obama has declared "off the table"?

This is truly Obama's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" issue, and it is he who has the opportunity to break the stalemate. But until Obama does some genuine soul-searching on his commitment to social justice, nothing that he says is going to make a difference.  


Prop. 8 Numbers Update
For the latest numbers, check out:
http://vote.sos.ca.gov/props/i...

12:04 p.m.
08 - Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry
 YES:  5,235,486        52.2% (Gain of 14,792 votes from last reading.)
 NO:   4,800,656        47.8% (Gain of 7,783 votes from last reading.)

10:09 a.m.
08 - Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry
 YES:  5,220,694        52.2%
 NO:   4,792,873        47.8%

Also, the NO on Prop. 8 campaign has refused to concede defeat! Here's the link: http://www.sacbee.com/1089/sto...

Kate Kendall, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, said 3 million to 4 million ballots remain uncounted statewide.

"The fact is depending on the turnout model we are looking at millions of votes yet to be counted," Kendall said. The race is too close to call. People's fundamental rights hang in the balance."



"Every time an ambulance passes it is either someone who opposes gay rights dying or someone who supports them being born."
~ Christopher Hayes


It's something new
California has voted to end an already EXISTING right.  "Same sex marriage" (equal marriage rights) were already legal in Ca.  The wonderful folks in Ca. have voted to eliminate a right an entire group of folks already had.

What's to stop the mob from eliminating other rights for other "unacceptable" people  --  say Muslims, or Jews, or perhaps "uppity Blacks"?

Prop 8 goes well beyond any "slippery slope".

Actually, I think we should end the right of Mormons to marry   ---   they tend to get so carried away, and many of the multiple wives become true "welfare queens".


O M G. Look at yourselves.
Seriously.

Look at yourselves.

Running here and there to avoid having to deal with a real problem, and casting poor strawmen aside and, worst of all...

being bigots yourselves.

Yeah, really.

Bigotry against the religious is still bigotry.  It happens here constantly, and its a hard, powerful force at work in any LGBT group.

I don't care if they are picking on you, taking away your rights, kicking me to the curb, threatening us with exterimination.

There is ZERO excuse for bigotry.

Obama is not a bigot. He gets it.  His position, really, is the positin of those who would be allies across the board.

"They" are fighting for a word.  And they appear to have seriously won that battle. Go on.  Go out and ask them.  They'll tell you.

Solution one: take that word from them. Start ballot measures removing the word Marriage from the law, since its obvious that it has more of a religious than a social convention and needs to be taken out on the grounds of separation twixt church and state,.

You want to know one of the reason that those f'ing things passed? LGBT people saying things like "Christians are bigots", "Christianity is the reason for all the bigotry"

let's flip that a sec, shall we?  "Gays are bigots". "The Agenda is the reason for all the Bigotry".

Oh, wait -- they've been saying that, haven't they?  You gave them that weapon, and its worked against you.

Each and every one of you that has condemned religion or the religious -- well, you are being just as much a bigot as those who say lifestyle and "same sex marriage".

ANd yes, "same sex marriage" is an evil, stupid, ugly term that's just as sexist as "one man one woman".

It should be marriage for all.  TAKE SEXUALITY OUT OF IT

IF its not supposed to matter, then how the hell can we use it as the point?

Pam's here feeling betrayed by her "race" -- really by the culture that she and I and so many others here have lived in.  That is a part of us.  That is born of persecution and denial.

Someone here noted "The church's are the sources of community" -- well, apparently not for LGBT black people, huh?  You think they are being welcomed into them?

So where are the LGB community centers for LGB folk of color?  Where?

Seriously.  I look out there and I see some that target "minority populations" and they have no money and no funds and they look like crap.

Then I see the ones where yeah, there are some people of color there, but the shade is pale, and there's tons of money and cool stuff and lots of events and involvement.

Note I left off the T.  Know why?  Cause theres a whopping big fat zilch.

you want to talk about race and religion connecting in the black population, well, you better start including your own damn faults of not doing enough to reach those populations.

I can hear some of ya "Oh, but I tried..."

Well, yeah, you did.  Tried that is.  And failed.  Miserably.

ANd I should note when you say "tried", it means you are blaming them for not wanting to come and join the paler side of things.

SO why?  Could it be a persistent sense of unease and too great a focus on stories of anyone but someone of color?

Betcha.

I'm sitting here, pretty much considering the whole damn election a total loss, but better in a lot of ways for me, because I see potential.  I see the opportunity and the chance and I'm absolutely going to take it.

And this dialog must happen within our own community.

Because until it does, and all this bigotry against religion, this apathy regarding racial & ethnic issues, this own site's tolerance for people saying horrible things about Other LGBT people becuase its ok since we all know they person really means just the one's that are really deserving of it, until all of that is worked throuh and gone?

All you are doing is making one enemy for every friend you make when you walk down the street.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


waaaait, a minute.
I think you are forgetting the important thing here and that is that we do not have the same power to opppress religion/religious groups/Lets just call it out and say Religious Right-wing groups that are 8-times-out-of-ten Christian-identified the way that "they" have oppressed and marginalized us. People are using their own belief systems to somehow define us and take away marriage rights that as tax-paying citizens we deserve due to the separation of church and state.

It's almost silly to sit here and say that gay people, or any people for that matter cannot question religious groups-including our own- and their actions. A bigot is someone who says that 'I hate christians' and yadda yadda ya. Very few people here and are saying that. What people are saying here is that some Christians are working to take away our rights based on their beliefs that have nothing to do with us.

Thats' not bigotry. Thats the truth.

And no. They do not own the word 'marriage'. If thats the case, I guess every Wiccan or Atheist better watch out because I guess their marriages are really marriages either by that logic. It is a social convention; it is also a religious one and no one is denying that, but people are denying us the right to be able to form our own. What if my religion is okay with gay marriage. what if I'm an atheist and therefore marriage is whatever I defined it or contract it to be? Consenting to give 'them' the word marriage is not a 'gay' v. religious thing like you are making it out to be.

I mean, I think it is fair to criticize the mainstream white-as-rice LGBT agencies, the black church and even POC LGBTs for not standing up, but do it on fair grounds where people are able to take account of things. On ALL SIDES.

I can criticize religion. And hey guess what? Religious people are fair to criticize my 'lifestyle' and me, and I would never take that away from them.

However, the idea that you can somehow defend actions of groups taking away LGBTs and then lombasts Us for it happening?

No. I would just rethink that. Just a little bit. Because your perspective seems to leave out accountability of the majority and somehow leave the blame of our 'defeat' solely on our feet just because we recognize the right to dissent from the general population.

shrugs honestly, just admitting emotin, your argument pissed me off and I just need to take a minute away from this all.

It's not the job of the oppress group to stop and think about the oppressors actions and feelings, and make them fell better about our existance!  


[ Parent ]
Take this rant to Fox News, they'll make you a star
"You want to know one of the reason that those f'ing things passed? LGBT people saying things like "Christians are bigots", "Christianity is the reason for all the bigotry"

let's flip that a sec, shall we?  "Gays are bigots". "The Agenda is the reason for all the Bigotry"...

Each and every one of you that has condemned religion or the religious -- well, you are being just as much a bigot as those who say lifestyle and "same sex marriage".

And yes, "same sex marriage" is an evil, stupid, ugly term that's just as sexist as "one man one woman".

Seriously, Shepard Smith had Ralph Nader on Fox News just last night. Smith salivated at the opportunity to defend Obama against Nader's "Uncle Tom" smear.

Imagine how delighted Fox would be to have a Black trans activist on camera to accuse the LGBT coalition of "bigotry against religion". After all, what other explanation could there be for the hateful gay opposition to a citizens' proposition that merely seeks to clarify the sacred tradition of marriage?


[ Parent ]
But Dyssonance isn't speaking to Fox News, she is speaking to family
I was surprised to see her post, since the comments in this thread have been mild and targeted, i.e. about conservative Christianity.  But in the past, I have seen broad, untargeted attacks on religion in the comment here at PHB, so I think I understand her on this point.

Pam wrote her article because she wanted us to realize the lack of attention which race is getting in our community.  I agree with her.  I don't know quite what to do about it, but I am willing to learn.  And willing to try.  But we need to talk first, and its good that we are talking.

I think we can talk about religion, too (although maybe in a different thread).  That many of us in the LGBT family are angry about religion is very understandable.  Conservative Christians have been a force of oppression against us, as individuals and as a group.  When, in the past, I have read angry, broad attacks on religion here, my feeling has been that the writer was venting. And there is nothing wrong with that.  It may even be necessary if we are to cope when majority force is used against us (such as with Proposition 8).

But painting all religion, or even all Christianity, as intolerant and oppressive is a mistake.  We do have religious allies.  And some of us belong to religious groups which are supportive of our community. So when religious LGBT individuals read categorical attacks on religion here, it can be dismaying.

As Saywhat? mentioned, its not the job of the oppressed group to make our oppressors feel better.  But perhaps we should remember that not all religion is our enemy.  And if we are going to bring about change, it would serve us well to work with our religious friends.



If you want allies, you have to be an ally.


[ Parent ]
Follow up
I'd be glad to head to FOX news where I'd take them to task for the same things -- on their side.
Can anyone get me on O'Reilly so I can treat him to a little dyssonant harmony?

And I'm a mixed trans activist. That's important to remember, as I wont buy into the whole drop makes ya all a one an none of the other. I'm black, white, and red, all and none.

And yes.  Bigotry against religion. Oppression doesn't have to include bigotry.  And oppression is not a justification for it.

Bigotry -- no matter who it is -- is wrong.  Period.

And when you attack your oppressors with it, all you do is hand them them that metaphorical whip.

When I say same sex marriage is wrong, I mean it.  IT was term of theirs.  They own it, they used it as some sort of divison, and they won becuase of it and we (yes, WE) helped them by using it ourselves when all we should be using, period, is just marriage.

Its not red marriage, its not blue marriage -- its just marriage.  And its a right for everyone, no matter what those who want to deny all of us such thin or say or do.  Unalienable.

No, we cannot oppress them.  Not going to happen in the lifetime of anyone alive now.  I knew that wehn I wrote that. I did not forget it.

But we can help them to further our own oppression.  ANd by being bigots against the religious, we do exactly that.  We tell them the one common bond they have is evil, just as they tell us that the common bond of sexual identity we all share is evil.

IT makes more enemies, and we need to make more friends.  (Ah shit, now I'm parroting that f-wit frank).

i never said that anyone couldn't question religion.  But what I am seeing all too often from all too many isn't merely questioning, its outright condemnation. Would you like me to provide examples of what we and our allies have said about "them" and "their" allies?

A bigot doesn't have to say they hate gay people.  And, usually, the first defense they use is to say "oh, I don't hate them".  I'll not allow a double standard for us.  I[m going to expect -- nay, demand -- a better standard, since we are arguing for our very existence on those grounds,

Bigotry can be truth.  Its true that marriage is traditionally twixt a man and a woman in the US.  And yet, that's still bigotry.  That's still sexism.  Simply becuase it is true oesn't mean its not bigotry.

Defend them?  No.  Point out that we gave them some of their most subtle weapons against us through our own human shortcomings?  Oh hell yeah.

Are they accountable?  Most certainly.  And every last one of them needs to be held to it, as well.  I'd love to see the ballots publicized so we could go to these people and say "hey, ya know what, I'm the face of what you just spit on.  Here's the cloth I wiped it off with -- I thought you'd like it for a souvenier."

Not all Christians are against us -- and we include Christians.  We include muslims.  We include every single group that is actively oppressing us becuase we cuts across all of it. That includes conservative christians. The reason I always say Reconstructionists is that that's a group that doesn't.

I'm not saying think about their feelings, I'm saying stop and think about what weapon yuo are handing them through your own inaction.

And, actually, in war, yeah -- you do want to think about your opponents actions and feelings.  Our being itself is an act of war.  THey declared it.  "Culture War" they say. Know your enemy.

THey are now at 30 states.  3 more and they have enough to force a federal amendment.  8 more and they can pass it.

Federally.  You don't think its time to look at how we let them frame the argument? You dont' think that we're doing something that isnt working when 8 is so freaking close that it means we were there.

And this ties into race.  We have to learn to speak their language to reach them.  We have to go to them, time and time again, just as we do each year, time and time again in our parades.

Venting -- yeah.  But when a famous politician or actor vents in a drunken rage, they get it pointed out that it comes from something beneath. We are no different.  I've vented and said some horribly nasty things.  I just work at making sure its agains a person or an entity, not a while group of people. That was my vent. Building up for this whole damn season since ENDA when I started spending my days advocating and investing in a cause that ultimately has no direct bearing or value for me personally.

And every time I would speak, I'd see my effort undercut by the vitriol of others, feeding into the stuff given them already.

There's too little representation of POC in everything we do, and there's too little leg up style work being done to change the fundamentals of the enormity of homophobia among the black population.

It must stop, and if people are accusing religion of being all these things on our side, we will never reach them, becuase we'll never be able to go to where they live.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Religion and community
David, one of my best friends from college in NYC was also my first close friend to die of AIDS.  He was an gay African-American from Washington, D.C.  Freshman year I spent a week with him and his family, seeing D.C. for the first time.  His parents were lovely people, very welcoming.  He wasn't, strictly speaking, "out" to his parents in that he didn't discuss his sexual orientation with them, but they knew he was gay, they knew I was gay, they probably wondered if he & I were having a sexual relationship (we weren't), but they never asked and never would.

I saw them again a few years later at graduation time.  They were as gracious as ever.  I saw them again a few years after that at David's church funeral in D.C., to which they graciously invited me, though I was not asked to say anything.  Despite being an atheist, I was glad to go, to celebrate the too-short life of my friend.  But the funeral was for a David I barely knew ... it was for the David his parents and their church community wanted, not the David who actually was.  You would never have known that the David they buried was gay, you would never have known what he died of.  It was a funeral that denied the totality of his existence, and denied aspects of his humanity, as voters in CA, AZ, AR, and FL have today denied my humanity.  I left thoroughly depressed, as thoroughly depressed as I am today.

David's parents aren't motivated by hate, nor by what they would identify as homophobia.  They loved their son, even if they had trouble accepting him completely.  They are motivated by what their community, their preacher, the people they see as their allies and support wants them to believe is right -- values they share, values that make them part of their community.  I don't see them accepting that it's okay to be gay, even when it strikes so close to home.  I see them as praying for his salvation, of wanting what they think is best for him, as any loving parent would.  There's no doubt in my mind they would have supported Prop. 8.

I'm clueless as to how to change their minds, or anyone like them.  I don't think, as a white gay man, I can.  I think change has to come from within their community, and has to be affected by people within that community.  It remains to be seen whether the will to do so exists.  I can't celebrate today ... instead I feel betrayed.  After what's happened, I'm mad that I voted for a man who denies my humanity as much as David's parents denied his, a man who has stated repeatedly in no uncertain terms that separate but equal is good enough for people like me.  Today, I am disgusted by Barack Obama, disgusted by the African-Americans and the Mormons and the Catholics and fundamentalists who voted against equality.  Somewhere inside, I still know that many of these are lovely people, many are gracious, many are just doing what they think is right, with the best of intentions.  But today, I'm disgusted.  And depressed.


Right and Right
I think Pam's right.  The LGBT community has a problem with racism.  We also have a problem with sexism.  I've seen both up close, so I know it's true.  The black community also has a problem with sexism and heterosexism.  And there's plenty of blame to go around for the (as yet unproven) passage of Prop 8.  In a vote that is still so close, even small percentages of votes matter bigtime, so I'm sure we'll all be getting a piece of the humble pie.
I also think Fannie is right, because I don't think the hurt feelings are really about "blame".  I think they're about hurt feelings.  I think queer people would still feel hurt if it were another minority who voted so overwhelmingly for it.  It is ironic (regardless of religion or anything else) when one group at the height of their movement for equality simultaneously squelches the rights of another minority.  Let's not forget that queers voting for Obama were already compromising to vote for a candidate who does not publicly support their rights.  Numbers do hurt, and with gays voting 70% for the black candidate and blacks in California voting 70% anti-gay, of course that smarts.  How could it not?
I don't think it's fair of Darkrose to say that people who express that hurt just "Blame the Brown People" and don't take others into account.  Of course, the Mormon church and older voters share the "blame", but this is a different issue because gays had no reason to hope for solidarity from them.  But from another group facing injustice and oppression?  Yes, one could hope for solidarity there.  This time, that hope was roundly disappointed.  There's nothing wrong with the hurt feelings that follow.  The question is, how can we move forward?

Yes we can!

Assumptions
There's a difference between expressing hurt and the outright racism I've seen in some places, including comments like "next time I see bigotry in the LBGT community, I'm going to remain silent".

Yes, one could hope for solidarity there.

The assumption that because black people have been the victims of discrimination means we don't have to actually work to reach out and start a dialogue is as ludicrous as assuming that being female automatically makes you a feminist. Sure, you can hope for solidarity, but why expect it when the mainstream GLBT community doesn't seem to engage on issues that matter to people of color? Solidarity means building coalitions, and the "8 passed because of black people!" line I keep hearing isn't going to make that any easier.


[ Parent ]
"Mainstream" GLBT community?
Sorry, but from my viewpoint, the "mainstream" shoe is now on the other foot. The Black community has demanded full citizenship in mainstream society and has been righteously vindicated in this Presidential election. And that Black community has chosen, along with Obama and most of the rest of mainstream society, to vote against the entire LGBT community and block our demands for full citizenship in mainstream society.

There is no such thing as a "mainstream" LGBT community, we are all marginalized in this society. We can and should talk about racism within LGBT communities, and it is definitely an important topic for us. But it was not marginalized LGBT racism that was responsible for the passage of Proposition 8, it was the overt homophobia of mainstream society.


[ Parent ]
Okay, then:
Instead of mainstream, read white.

And understand that when you and others write the black community off as irredeemably homophobic, you're asking those of us who are queer and black to choose which community to be a part of, or you're telling us that we don't exist. And the LBGT movement will continue to be a bowl of milk with a few chocolate and butterscotch chips scattered around. And nothing will change.


[ Parent ]
Mainstream is the new White
Yes, White people established mainstream American society, and still act like it's a birthright. But Anglo demographics have been steadily undermined over recent decades and Obama's election represents a cultural, if not literal, tipping point. Acceptance in mainstream society is no longer an exclusively White perogative and for queer folks, being White is no guarantee of mainstream acceptance. While the playing field is anything but level, it is no longer the one-dimensional White versus Black landscape of the past.

I don't think anyone is asking Black queer folks to choose between the two communities, we all recognize that you live in both. As with homophobia, racism takes on many forms and varies greatly among different social and ethnic groups. The marginalized racism in the LGBT world is not equivalent to the institutionalized racism of mainstream society. It was not queers who historically oppressed and victimized Black folks, it was the same straight people who vilified us as well.

Likewise, the homophobia that exists in Black communities is not the main barrier that queer folks experience. What few cases there are of specifically Black homophobia are dwarfed by the overwhelming rejection of LGBT rights by straight mainstream society, notably spearheaded by Christian moral condemnation.

While it is vital that we confront racism within LGBT society, it counts for nothing but our own well being. The mainstream world could care less whether we queers get along with each other, and will stick to their homophobic preconceptions about us regardless of how much we may manage to overcome our own prejudices. What will make an impression on them is not how ethnically balanced the LGBT movement can become, but how convincingly we can claim our own stake in mainstream society.


[ Parent ]
one note
There is an error.

The historical oppression of african americans was absolutely done by queer folks as well as straight folks. We are just as involved there are we are any place else.

And some straight folks are queer, btw (raises hand).

Your last paragraph is pretty much dead on, too.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Assumptions
Like I said, I know the LGBT community has a racism problem. I've been in the lone position of trying to get a GLBT organization to come out publicly and actively in support of students of color during a contentious time at my former university.  It didn't work because there is a racism problem in the LGBT community, and I think that organization lost a very important opportunity to make an alliance.  So, I know there is outright racism playing a part here.
About this discussion- Some people are expressing their genuine feelings (some of which are right), others saying stupid stuff.  The whole issue can't be put away as blaming because the whole response is not blame.  It's more complicated than that and people should be able to discuss their feelings about a really troubling aspect of this vote.
Second, I didn't say that we don't have to "actually work to reach out and start a dialogue".  In fact I strongly agree with that.  I also said "hope" for solidarity, and specifically chose not to say "expect".  I don't expect it because I know the GLBT community fails to address issues that matter to people of color, and as such has no right to expect anything from them.  Hope is a different thing however, and many people probably hoped for solidarity even while they did not expect it.  That hope led to disappointment.  We all feel disappointed when our hopes are not realized, even if we didn't really expect them to be.
Yes, solidarity does mean building coalitions.  Blaming black people for the passage of Prop 8 is just a misguided response to what really comes down to disappointment.  Negativity from either side doesn't make the job easier.  Not making assumptions and trying to understand each other does.

Yes we can!

[ Parent ]
Can We Ever Get Beyond Prejudice?
The comments on this thread along with various election results made we think a little bit deeper about what prejudice is and made me worry that we can never get beyond it.  I admit that as a white man of a certain age, I don't think I'll ever be free of racism, despite having had black lovers, black platonic roommates, and yes, even the proverbial black best friend - I've just got too much accumulated baggage from living in this society (don't know if any other society would be better).  Mostly I'm able to hide this racism so other people don't see it.  But I feel it myself sometimes when I'm driving or when I'm walking down a dark street, etc.  And, of course, as a gay man of a certain age, I've felt myself the target of prejudice countless times.

It really surprised me to see that the demographic that voted most heavily to take away same-sex marriage rights was black women.  For quite a few years I worked in dead-end, minimum wage jobs.  A lot of my co-workers were black women, and for the most part, we were completely and utterly sympatico.  In most of these jobs, black women and gay men were the very bottom of the pecking order.  And even beyond our low work status, we seemed to share a very real human connection.  And I wondered how these women with whom I laughed (and sometimes cried) had voted.  Even if they voted for the ban, I doubt that they had any thought that their vote was a vote to deny my rights.

One would hope that with increased contact, more day-to-day familiarity with different types of people that prejudice would just wither away - but I wonder.  Humans seem to have the capacity to maintain their prejudices about groups in general while excepting individuals.   For example, I may not like Chinese as a group, even though I know plenty of Chinese that I like just fine.  Somehow, I'm able to maintain my prejudice against a group despite the fact that I like all the individuals that I know in that group.  I'm able to keep all my prejudices by making all the individuals exceptions to the rule.

And I wonder how much Obama's election signals a post-racial society.  I think that there are plenty of people who still harbor as much racism as they ever did - and who still voted for Obama.  Having seen him on TV for over two years, Obama may just have become familiar and unthreatening.  People may still dislike blacks as a group, but discount his membership in the group.  Oh, I don't mind him; he's different.

I guess that what I'm trying to say in my inarticulate way is that racism and homophobia are really hard to overcome.  It's been part of our culture (and maybe, God forbid, part of human nature).  I'm really sorry about the fact that Prop. 8 won; and I'm really glad that Obama won.  Despite the electoral wins and losses, the battle goes on.  And regardless of our individual race or sexual preference, we're all suffering to some degree from both racism and homophobia.  So I don't think that just increased familiarity is really the ultimate answer.

I don't know what the answer is beyond the fact that maybe the first step is examining ourselves, our thoughts and actions - closely and continutally . . . and recognizing that although we may never be able to eliminate prejudice entirely, it's what we should be working toward.

 


I'd agree, except
Whites voted 55% against Prop 8. Other minorities voted 50-50.

What does that tell you?


URL Link Changed Again!
For those still following the votes, they changed the link again.

Here's the NEW link:
http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns...

"Every time an ambulance passes it is either someone who opposes gay rights dying or someone who supports them being born."
~ Christopher Hayes


Tired
Thanks for the hat tip, Pam. I agree with everything you said, and I'm sorry that so many posters here seem to be buying the argument that all black people are homophobic and therefore the gay community should write them off.

I did the math last night out of curiosity, and what I found was that out of a sample size of roughly 2,250, 171 black voters told pollsters they'd voted yes. That's a large percentage of the 225 black voters polled, but is still less than 10% of the total sample.

The fact that 70% of black voters went yes was a factor. But the conclusion that black people as a group are automatically more homophobic than white people is offensive and wrong. The group that put 8 on the ballot initially was mostly white. The people funding it were overwhelmingly white. There's plenty of blame to go around, if you want to spend time doing that rather than figuring out how we're going to change people's hearts and minds.


"But the blame needs to be put into perspective..."
Disclosures...
White, lesbian, NY state resident, huge blender fan (daily visitor), have no significant relationships with POC, voted enthusiastically for Barack Obama EVEN THOUGH I was a very disaffected Hillary supporter 5 months ago.  Already planning to vote for him again in 4 years and (deep breath)....  I'm HOPPING MAD that 70% of black people in CA voted for Prop 8!

Perspective...indeed.  Blacks are only 6.2% of the CA population.  I'm sorry, but if you are among a group of people (LGBT) that has to explain what discrimination is and why it is wrong to THE MOST egregiously, systematically, lengthily discriminated against group of people in American history  then you might as well consider giving up your cause!!!!!!  They may be only 6.2% of the population in CA BUT they are the one group of people, the one minority if there is none other, that should need NO  influencing or persuasion about discrimination and bigotry.

White senior citizens I can completely understand voting for prop 8 - many of them wouldn't know discrimination if it whacked them upside the head.  Mormons, Catholics I can completely understand - religion and morality are sufficient reasons to discriminate for them.  But I cannot even remotely "get" how a black person can vote FOR discrimination!!!!!!!

And tell me...if you are white, just how do you have that "this is discrimination and it is wrong" conversation with a black person?  I can't imagine trying to help a black person identify discrimination even if in one of its non-racial manifestations!  IN trying to imagine myself in that black person's shoes having such a conversation with a white person, I can, AT BEST, only imagine just simply dismissing this person outright...who are YOU to tell me what discrimination is?!  What do YOU know about discrimination?! I for one am here to say that I would NEVER consider having a conversation with a black person about whether or not XYZ is discrimination/bigotry unless I knew in advance that they agreed with me.  I simply would not know how to have that conversation in a way that I wouldn't be afraid would completely backfire.

"The belief that white=gay is big part of the problem..."
Did you by chance mean to say "gay=white" (i.e. that if you are gay your must be white)?  But, more importantly, did you really mean to write this?!  If "white=gay" to black people then a black person voting for Prop 8 is a RACIALLY bigoted action, not just a bigoted action, no?  Is this how I should understand what happened yesterday in CA?  And if it is indeed the case, then how can a white person have a conversation with any straight black person about bigotry based on sexual orientation given that the conversation is  "incognito" about discrimination based on race and we're back to the problem mentioned in the previous paragraph.

To close, I don't ONLY blame black CAlifornians for the passage of Prop 8 in CA but of all the people I do blame, they are the ones who boggle my mind the most, anger me the most, frustrate me the most because of all who I blame, they are the ones who should KNOW better WITHOUT extensive outreach!

That's MY perspective...yesterday I was hopeful that the voters Barack Obama pulled to the polls - blacks, young people, etc. - would be exactly the ones we LGBT's needed to go to the polls...today I am completely deflated that this wasn't the case after all!

The silver lining to the Prop 8 vote is that Barack Obama will be president for 4 years and in a position to advance the cause of marriage equality on the federal level with the repeal of DOMA, which we now need vastly more than we did before.  I'm also hopeful that with a Democratic Senate, Gov. Patterson can get a marriage equality bill through the NY legislature (was delighted to see he will be participating at the Blend!).  

Hopping Mad in NY!

PS - I have not read all the comments to Pam's original post so my post is not a response to anything other than the original post.


no, just flopped in error
"The belief that white=gay is big part of the problem..."
Did you by chance mean to say "gay=white"

fixed that.


[ Parent ]
Irony
they are the ones who should KNOW better WITHOUT extensive outreach!

Why?

Why should black people "know better" when the only time the white GLBT community engages them is when they're appropriating the Civil Rights Movement? Where's the GLBT community on issues other than marriage, like universal health care, or fair housing, or education, or voter suppression?

Why is it that the "faces" of the movement are overwhelmingly white?

And you know what's really ironic? My comments here and on Kos have been met with outrage from people claiming I'm ignoring black homophobia and blaming white people for Prop 8's passage. Yet, on the Blackfolk community on LJ yesterday, when everyone was still ecstatic over Obama's win, my post expressing sadness over Prop 8 has been met with nothing but support and people saying, "That's wrong."

But since the entire black community is a homophobic monolith, all of those comments must be coming from people like me, who don't really exist.


[ Parent ]
RE Ballot initiatives
I refuse to accept responsibility for a bunch of bigots. What shoud I have done Pam? Whined..."Please, please accept me, pretty please with sugar on top". You let your own people off  with a slap on the wrist, so I am going to defend my people the angry, white gays.  I am tired of being understanding while the African American community at large spits in our face. It is a shame,  when a community as a whole shuns another repressed minority using the same bible that they were bashed with only 40 or so years ago.  So forgive me, if I am not feeling to generous tonight while I worry about whether I still have a marriage or not.

no slap on the wrist here
You let your own people off  with a slap on the wrist, so I am going to defend my people the angry, white gays.  

Wow. Just wow. "your own people"? Who exactly would that be? Did I just turn in my gay card?

1) Last time I checked, I'm still black and gay and would have lost my rights in CA as well.

2) Regular readers of my blog can attest that I have been extremely hard on the black homobigots who work to take my rights away since I began the Blend, and have expressed my frustration with closeted blacks who enable the homophobia to continue from the closet as the pastor damns them from the pulpit. Welcome to the party of being a dual minority (or triple if you count being female).

People are seeing what you they to see in my essay - "blame whitey." That's absurd. though I understand the human desire to find a scapegoat for what is a horrible outcome. What we saw yesterday is a result of an issue that has gone unaddressed for a long time -- and the LGBT community was well aware of it.

As far as outreach is concerned, the LGBT community seems to have no problem doing outreach to other groups initially resistant to our civil equality message -- take seniors, for instance. They were instrumental in turning back the first AZ amendment, and were targeted as crucial, even though many certainly had negative views on equality at the outset. Doing door-to-door outreach and engaging at many levels was not a problem.

Why is the religious black community, which is in general political alignment with many LGBTs, written off as monolithic community that is wholly intransigent on our issues? Not all blacks are homophobes, not all of them are religious, and not all religious blacks are homophobes.

The fact is, I'm addressing the treatment of the demographic is problematic. It's a vicious cycle if our movement doesn't think any can be moved, doesn't try, and then is angry when there is a result like this.

It's a thorny issue, no doubt, but running away from it isn't the answer, any more than saying all white evangelicals cannot be reached. We know that isn't true either, particularly with younger ones.  


[ Parent ]
Pam, you didn't get the message from the GOP
 Racism doesn't exsist since Tony Snow said so.  I say this jokingly but also to be honest.

 There is one MAJOR problem that exsists, TRUST, and the lack of it.  Many people believed Tony Snow.  Many who knew different were left wondering what planet was he on.

 Honest discussion rarely exsists in many circles.  The yes on 2, 8 and 102 people used the most dishonest ads that could be used.  The lack of truth divides and pits one group of people against another.  As we have seen in war a bridge can be destroyed in a day, and it takes years to rebuild.

 How do you open a line of communication when there is so much doubt if someone is telling the truth or not.

 Case and Point. Many here at PHB know that over 20+ years ago, I was a member of the KKK. Many people knew I was then, black and white.  When I left that hate filled group, it took a long time before people actually believed I realized the error I made.  It was a black guy that had an open mind that gave me the chance to be his friend and me to be his.

 It takes dropping stereotypes and an open mind. The 'You have no idea' and other claims that are made.  

 The questions need to be asked to all, 'Why did you vote yes on prop 8?' This needs to be answered honestly and we need to accept their answer as honest.  We need to be asked the opposite as well.

 With all that said, we lost because we were not honest as well. Many on our side thought it was a great idea to try to deceive voters by not showing ads with two gay men in them. The thought that people might be persuaded to vote NO if they didn't see two gay guys, which was completely wrong.  And that just showed voters we had something to hide or be ashamed of.

 If we were honest it would have shown how dishonest the yes on 8 crowd is. instead we were no different.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.


[ Parent ]
Yes WOW...Read the exit polls
Pam I am a regular reader of your blog. I think I have a right to be angry. It seems to me, that you are blaming the GLBT community for prop 8 passing.  That is a big WOW to me, that you find no fault in the African American community. Are they so dumb that they did not know what they were doing? You appear  to be giving them a pass on their homophobia. Most black people where I grew up in Mississippi were very religious, as was my family. While I agree that not all black people are religious zealots or bigots. I am finding little solace in this fact right now. I like to deal in realism not p.c realism. Maybe in time wounds will heal, but African Americans  have a lot of making up to do.

[ Parent ]
Well, now ya done got under my skin...
And I just got it colored prettily again.  Dang it.

You know what?

THE LGBT community -- of which Pam and I are a part, remember -- is responsible for at least some of the failure.

Yes, really.  I don't give a rat's ass if you don't want to be reminded of your own shortcomings, I'm going to come in and do it anyway, 'cause in case people hadn't noticed, that's one of the things I do.  To you, to them, to myself.  I'm really very much equal opportunity that way.

Yes, you personally are at fault, and I don't care how upset you are because guess what?  I'm just as upset and I had that worry long before you did.  Because of the fight for this.

Don't forget, had it not been for agitation on the idea of marriage, I'd still be able to marry in two states and wouldn't have to worry about it being voided in another.

And yet I've been fighting right along side you and I can see it.

Yes, you are responsible because it appears that all you did was be understanding. Yet now, suddenly, you are not.  When what Pam is saying is that instead of merely being understanding, you should have gotten off your hind end and gotten out there and made them understanding.

That is your failure.  That is all of our failures.

WE did not do enough.  And seeing it in terms of color like that, well, that's just buying into more of the same crap that's being used against you.

Stop it, dammit. This was Cali-fucking-fornia, for crying out loud -- there's no way losing it could not have had something to do with a failure on our part.

Flat out.  And That isn't PC realism, that's cold ass reality, and its time that you actually faced it instead of finding another place to put it.

The failure was in standing there instead of reaching out, counting on somethng you yourself can't even find it in yourself to do.

Yeah - defend "your people". Just don't forget that I am one of your people.  And I am one of Pam's people.  And I am one this whole planet's people, and I'm not going to let you off one tiny bit easier than I let them off.

Sorry all, flag it trashy, but I gotta say it.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
It's not just in terms of color, but those are the people I deal with regularly
who claim that things are done to them.

I've never blamed an African American for the discrimination they've experienced, just like I've never blamed a Latino for the discrimination they've experienced.

I've fought them when I told mothers that, yes, their children really would have to do homework if they were going to learn math.  (As I've fought white parents with the same issue.)  I've fought for them when someone in my family or circle of acquaintances wanted to say they deserved a lower income because "they're lazy."

Never blame the victim.  Or, hey, why not say that "gay panic" is justified for people getting murdered.  Say that women that dress even semi-flatteringly deserve to get raped.  We don't allow blaming the victim as an excuse.  Not in any America I want to be a part of.

# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #


[ Parent ]
Agreed
I'm not blaming us for the discrimination.

I'm blaming us for not doing what we should be doing

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
I think what we should be doing now is getting out.
Maybe Canada can use an infusion of bright, talented people that would love to be wanted.

# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #


[ Parent ]
I don't care if I pissed you off....you should be!
No I am not to blame! The fact that you think  black people cannot be held responsible for their actions. That is racist. You don't give them enough credit for their bigotry. I don't have to justify what you think I did or did not do in order to win the approval of a group of people who hate me. So Yes blame me and every other gay...it was all our fault...we did not kiss ass enough, we are arrogant and privileged. You know what having equal rights means taking responsibility when the shit hits the fan, and it is all over the walls on this one. I want responsibility not some bs excuse about how black people cannot be held responsible for their bigotry.  

[ Parent ]
You are clearly too blind with anger to see
you find no fault in the African American community.

Bzzt. Wrong answer.

1) Did you by chance surf the archives for the numerous posts criticizing homophobia in the black community? I don't think so.

2) I received a ton of heated criticism from the black community for high-profile criticism of the Obama campaign and the McClurkin nonsense, both for my posts here and when I subbed for Glenn Greenwald at Salon (here and here). A good number of the emails were extremely nasty).

So I don't want to hear about playing one side over the other. It can suck to be a triple minority because each constituency at times doesn't fully trust your membership in their "club").


[ Parent ]
Dave, I think you are missing the point of Pam's article
She isn't trying to pass the blame.  She's trying to create change so we don't have a repeat of Tuesday's losses.

Is that so bad?

If you want allies, you have to be an ally.


[ Parent ]
It's a Simple Truth of Life
To me it shows the injustice of the situation from the beginning. The minority has to convince the majority to give their rights. If one student bullies another in school, does the bullied student try to convince the bully to stop, or does he go to the teacher? Isn't this why we have a court of law? To protect people from situations where popular vote results in an unjust law? It seems to boil down to the fact that we must learn to live in a society where there is no justice, and no rules.

Why should there be a need for 'engaging communities' at all? Oppossing proposition 8 was a decision any intelligent human could make with simple use of logic, without the need for any convincing from external parties. The fact that many humans fail to do this shows how primitve our species still is. I've basically lost hope in humanity.  


Not to nit-pick, Pam, but...
Pam wrote: "My reply to one reader: 'Who is blaming whites for homophobia in the black community? No one caused the homophobia, but it is the responsibility of all of us to do that outreach to change hearts and minds.' "

While I agree with much of your posting, Pam, I disagree most strenuously with the assertion that "no one caused the homophobia". I blame the churches (and no, not just the predominantly black Baptist ones, but the Mormon ones, the Pentecostal ones, the Catholic ones, etc.) as well as "religiously inspired" hate-mongers, such as FOTF, Exodus, Concerned Women of America, the Knights of Columbus, et al...

They should ALL be investigated by the IRS (we should all file complaints with the IRS to increase the liklihood that this happens, too!) and we should demand that these hatemongers' tax-exempt status be struck down.

Oh, and can we stop with the euphemism "social conservatives" please, and call them what they are (regardless of colour) -- BIGOTS.

BTW, in regards to Darkrose's comment, "Nor is it fair to say that Obama's have-it-both-ways position meant that black voters were going to march sheeplike to the polls and vote as Obama dictated."

Maybe not, but Bigot Obama's continued protestation that, while he supposedly "opposes discrimination" he is perfectly comfortable with personally endorsing the continued discrimination against queers (while trying to hide his bigotry behind the fig leaf of "religion"), his touring with "ex-gay" hate-promulgator Donnie McGlurkin (and subsequent defense of the same man) and his tepid, low, low-key statements about Prop 8 didn't exactly do us any favours now either, did they?

A friend of mine from Pennsylvania says, "For the Queer People, every vote is a strategic vote", and I couldn't agree more. Well, here's a look at the upcoming strategy of some queers out there:

Quote: "I'm going to give Obama the benefit of his first 100 days before I turn. I voted for him. Hell, I even worked to get him elected! I voted for him because I agree with his positions on most issues. I'm not saying he owes me, but if he doesn't do SOMETHING to advance our rights in his first 100 days, then I will officially abandon the Democrats for a third party. I will not support a party that asks for my help and then stabs me in the back with DOMA and DADT."

(from the comments here: http://www.365gay.com/blog/van...

We kept hearing so much about how Obama was so much better than McCain... oh, really? From my perspective, he is a bigot, just like McCain, and is -- at best -- the lesser of two evils. Obama in particular -- and the Democrats in general -- may soon learn that they cannot take our People and their support for granted; they can only spit in our faces so many times before we walk away.

"The dignity of an animal is measured by his capacity to revolt in the face of oppression." -- Mikhail Bakunin


agreed, on one level
Pam, I disagree most strenuously with the assertion that "no one caused the homophobia".

Of course some churches (remember not all are anti-equality, even in some of the denominations you reference) are indeed fomenting it. Even if one is homophobic, it is also clear views can be changed. We've seen it happen all the time.

We kept hearing so much about how Obama was so much better than McCain... oh, really? From my perspective, he is a bigot, just like McCain, and is -- at best -- the lesser of two evils. Obama in particular -- and the Democrats in general -- may soon learn that they cannot take our People and their support for granted; they can only spit in our faces so many times before we walk away.

And now is the time to hold Obama, the Dem-led Congress, as well as state legislators we helped elect accountable. See my AM post.


[ Parent ]
Responsibility
I agree that there is a responsibility for gays to reach out to the black community, but isn't there also a responsibility for black people to recognize how homophobia is damaging their own community? There are gay kids killing themselves and men marrying women because they don't feel like they have any other choice in the black community just as there are in many other communities, and the anti-gay sentiment that causes these problems needs to be addressed.

Absolutely, JoshMich
There is a responsibility on their part to recognize that it is damaging their community.

Now, how is that message going to be taken to them?  How is it that they are going to come to see that damage in real, personal terms that reach them where they live?

The need to address it is what we're talking about.  And, unfortunately, not everyone sees that we need to address it yet.

And until we do, we will keep losing.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Some resources
I was wondering what actually was done for outreach from the No on 8 campaign, and thought I'd share.  It seems like there was some, but not enough and too late in the season.  This may provide some clues about what to do better next time around.

An article about outreach done to different groups:
http://www.advocate.com/exclus...

And lack thereof:
http://igs.berkeley.edu/librar...

Pre-election analysis including info from a No on 8 outreach worker:
http://www.sfweekly.com/2008-1...

And check out that last one for the part about white evangelicals fomenting this very divisiveness we are engaging in right now!  They'd like nothing better than for us to keep tearing each other down.  They can keep us stuck in place (down) if we keep it up.  We need to realize that we all feel some level of disappointment about this and also that there is more we can and should do, so that we can move forward.  Suggestions anyone?

Yes we can!


Obama's distance and lack of interaction causes apathy
I am so sick of hearing from friends and from people in our community about how Obama's campaign was strategic.  He had to avoid direct interaction with the gay community or it would compromise his election.  He had to state that he doesn't agree that gays should be allowed to marry, but only that limited rights be afforded to gays and their families.  You don't think that any of the rhetoric or lack of interaction with the gay community provided an apathetic view point, lessoning the need to provide equality to all?  You don't think that Obama's stance being similar to McCain's on gay marriage gave people reason, allowed justification in their minds, enabled them to vote against children in need of a home or to vote against gay marriage?  He's a celebrity of course their was influence.  We have made so much progress over the past eight years, only now to have steps backwards on the day a new president is elected.  I cannot help but feel that if Obama had just once stressed of the wrongs of a mass majority voting on behalf of a minority, we wouldn't have so a battle ahead of us.  The gap has widened and gays are a confirmed 3rd class.  Now, not only have our freedoms shrank, but our tax brackets increased to pay for the services that the masses deem necessary for their families.

As one that has been on the frontlines of getting signatures for legalizing gay marriage, I can say from experience, the biggest opponents were people of color.  I have managed to give benefit of the doubt, but now I find this incredibly difficult to swallow.  So now that everyone else has been taken care of, we're going to take the submissive back seat again and blame ourselves for not educating enough.  The education has been lived and the black community should know it best.  They've educated me on that and I know they don't want me to educate them about it.  

It's time we made some radical shifts in our strategy.  It's time we did something that might be inconvenient to others.  It's time for our change, demonstrations, organized boycotts, what ever it takes to get notice.  Hit them in the purse strings, expose the corruptness, and most of all, show that we're not going take this bs.


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