The enabled closet kills?

Ever watch the news?

Of course he might have tried to hire a hit man.  Cheating spouse tries to off the mate?  Of course it happens.  The genders of the arties involved is incidental.  The origianl piece on the risks of "down low" was pretty strong.  This follow up tries to draw conclusions that don't necessarily follow. 

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by: surakmn @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 08:46:20 AM CDT

Remember these...

Scott Peterson.

Amy Fisher (the "Long Island Lolita")

Lisa Nowak (the crazy astronaut)

 

All heteros who wanted to kill (or did kill) someone who got in the way of their getting some ass.

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by: emily2 @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:41:29 AM CDT

Ex-straight musings

Should we start a program to rescue them from their dangerous and destructive lifestyle? ;-)

Obviously splashy headlines aren't a statistically valid sample, but you would think that with all the shit that gay people go through growing up they would be more likely to snap and go psycho killer - but it doesn't seem to be the case.

I wonder if it has something to do with the different pressures that we are subjected to.  The straight world is bombarded with constant pressure to find the perfect spouse, get married, make money, have beautiful children, etc.  Not only that, but they can't turn around without seeing examples of these perfect, successful people in tv shows, movies, books, and advertisements.  It becomes both a duty and an entitlement. You can't get love by killing a rival or a lover, so what is the point? Maybe it isn't about love, but the fear that you have failed at life if you can't have them.

Gay people who survive adolescance, on the other hand, have already dealth with the fact that they are not going to fulfill society's expectations.  They may have personal fairy tales, but if they don't work out, it is just something to deal with.  I feel that you start with a lower bar and learn to appreciate what is there, whether it is a 5-year relationship that fades out, a friendship, a lifelong partner, or whatever. Not that almost all straight people aren't capable of doing that, but I think that we get more practice.

What the hell was I doing in Oaxaca in 1992, on the eve of the Zapatista revolution?

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by: Cambridge Kid @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 11:06:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kid, your tagline is from a L. Cohen song, isn't it?

What you just wrote, Kid, is similar to something I was thinking with regards to a queer life.  One way of summarizing a queer life is someone who didn't meet expectations.  As you just wrote, we are all expected to date someone of the other gender, marry, procreate, grow old, and die.  What we share with straight people, if a gang of homobigots don't kill us, is the growing old and dying, but otherwise, we fail the standard expectations. 

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by: Holly Capote @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 14:13:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yeah, Lenny speaks to me :-)

What I might say to a slightly younger me:

You who must leave everything that you cannot control.
It begins with your family, but soon it comes around to your soul.
Well I've been where you're hanging, I think I can see how you're pinned:
When you're not feeling holy, your loneliness says that you've sinned.

~ Sisters of Mercy

You can see that there is a pretty big generation gap looming as well, Holly.  As more and more families accept that gay is normal, the ties that bind us become weaker than the differences that divide us.  Gay culture is an artificial construct in that very few gay people are born into a gay family.  It exists because we are driven into ghettos and cut off from our past.  We construct our history and tradition ad hoc by gleaning it from friends and older members of the community.  As we are integrated back into our birth communities, we are approaching a point where the term "gay culture" will have about as much utility as "female culture".

That is a wonderful thing, but it is also a little sad.  We are beginning to lose our unique perspective and all of the insight that comes out of pain and alienation.  We are transforming from invisible outsiders to visible insiders. We are growing legs, but losing our wings.

What the hell was I doing in Oaxaca in 1992, on the eve of the Zapatista revolution?

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by: Cambridge Kid @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 14:39:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're the best, Kid. Simply the best.

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by: Holly Capote @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 15:57:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're pretty special yourself, Holly :-)

What the hell was I doing in Oaxaca in 1992, on the eve of the Zapatista revolution?

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by: Cambridge Kid @ Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 19:00:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Plenty of divorced gay dads

manage to have good relationships with their kids and cordial ones with their spouses.  I daresay the majority of these dads really tried to be straight and faithful, but just became depressed and finally fessed up to the wife that he was gay, and that's why his bedroom performances were less frequent, she wasn't at fault in any way.

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by: NancyP @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 12:02:19 PM CDT

The Closet Does A Lot of Damage

The closet is so destructive. Its a disaster for those who live in it and those around them. Just look at Ted Haggard, Mark Foley etc. 

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by: Bloggernista @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 14:58:31 PM CDT

Lots of sanctimony on this subject here

You know maybe I am becomming thin skinned, but some of the posts and comments on this issue are pretty dammned sanctimonious.  I was no more inclined to murder my wife because I was in the closet.  Depressed, suicidal at times, sure, but I never considered murdering her for God's sake.  Even in the aftermath of her withering anger (and she has done some unbelieveably mean and vindictive things to me and my kids), the thought has not crossed my mind.  This guy was a freakin wack job that had many deeper issues than being in the closet.  On this site, I have indirectly been called a scumbag because of how I came out.  One commenter said her Lesbian friend was so much more curageous because she told her husband before she acted.  What utter bullshit.  If you are in a marriage and you end it, for whatever reason, you are most likely leaving the other party in shambles.  I am not proud of what I did and how it went down, but until you walk a mile in my shoes, please keep your dammed sanctimonious bullshit to yourself.

Let he without sin cast the first stone.

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by: dcmsufan @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 16:34:15 PM CDT

Amazing there is no reference to Jim McGreevey

After all, this thread seems to fit him to a tee. Instead the examples somehow winds around to Republicans like Foley.  I thought the subject was about gays who were not fundamentalists, who considered themselves liberal, and wanted to enjoy the hetero married facade. That doesn't fit Foley. It fits McGreevey dead on.

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by: Godfrey @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 17:50:21 PM CDT

You wanna know what I think?

I think it is disgusting that we have this discussion about those evil gay men who get married and lie and cheat on their wives but NEVER, NEVER EVER have a discussion about lesbians who marry men and use them and cheat on them and then divorce them taking the house, the kids, the alimony and the child support with them.

 Last week there was a story about a lesbian who was receiving alimony from her ex-husband even though she is in a domestic partnership with a woman and virtually NO ONE commented on it and absolutely NO ONE chastised her for what she did to the man.

 I think gay men who marry women to stay in the closet deserve a lot of the scorn they receive I just don't understand why the same scorn is NEVER applied to lesbians.  Not only are they not brow beaten, they're not even acknowledged.

 I guess a lot of people who claim to be feminists are actually quite comfortable with enforcing gender roles (but only on men) and the idea that men have responsibilities to their wives but not the other way around.  I can't think of any other explanation for the disparity in the way we look at the different sexes in these cases.

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by: Zeke @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 20:07:40 PM CDT

Whoa, there!

Actually, you pegged the whole reason that men are scorned and women aren't.

Not only are they not brow beaten, they're not even acknowledged.

Hey, at least as a gay man your sexual activity with each other is acknowledged as REAL sex!

Your very comment exemplifies the problem.  Lesbians are NOT acknowledged.  Simple.  Like the larger society, the gay community is incredibly male-centered, so if we get ignored out there, what makes you think we won't get ignored here?

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by: callie @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 20:37:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Obviously we're not ignored.

Apparently Bill O'Reilly thinks there were lesbian gangs  brandishing pink pistols terrorizing young girls across America.

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 22:23:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry but I'm calling bullshit on you Callie...

That may hold water in the wider world but it doesn't explain why gay and LESBIAN people are so much harder on gay married men than they are on married lesbians.

 Are you saying that gays and lesbians don't consider lesbian sex as real?  I'm talking about how gay and LESBIAN people react differently to married gay men and married lesbians.  I NEVER see lesbians complaining about the way married lesbians are deceitful and shameful for hurting their husbands but I often hear gay men AND lesbians going on and on about the evil married gay men and how horrible they are for all they do to their poor wives.

 I notice that YOU didn't comment on the story about the lesbian who was getting alimony from her ex-husband.  Is the reason that YOU and other gay and LESBIAN people don't comment on or condemn married lesbians because YOU don't consider lesbian sex as real sex?  Is the "male-centered" gay community the reason that you don't speak up?  If so then shame on you; if not then why the silence?

 Drop the victim whining.  The reason that people don't talk about married lesbians is because people don't believe that wives have responsibilities to husbands in the same way that they believe husbands have responsibilities to wives AND ex-wives.  Any idiot who pays attention to family courts can see that.  It's also a product of how gay men are more often looked at with disgust and seen as a threat MUCH more than lesbians.  It's just disappointing to see gays AND lesbians buying into these gender biases.

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by: Zeke @ Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 22:32:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

First of all...

I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to infer that I'm an idiot for not thinking as you do.

Second, you seem to have an issue with LESBIANS!!!  Apparently, you haven't had this discussion with many lesbians.  Everyone I know, including my partner and I, find infidelity of any form disgusting and reprehensible.

Third, talk about being a whiny victim "It's also a product of how gay men are more often looked at with disgust and seen as a threat MUCH more than lesbians."

We're all a part of our culture, Zeke, and it's a male-dominated, patriachial culture.  Lesbian sex hasn't been seen as a threat until women decided that they would actually rather live together than have flings on the side.  I believe even during the Victorian times it was seen as acceptable for young women, prior to marriage, to have romantic friendships because it prepared them for marriage with a man.  In other words, the expectation was that the woman would always end up with the man.

Finally, don't play dense with me, 'kay?  You damn well know that the comments I made about "real sex" are mysoginistic, patriarchially derived concepts that I was reiterating as a point of explanation.  It's along the same lines as you saying gay male sex is disgusting and a threat.  Is it?  Do you really believe that?  Are gay men more threatening than lesbians?  If so, then aren't you just parroting the social belief that women are inferior, not just physically and emotionally, but sexually as well?

Tit...tat.  Next!

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by: callie @ Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 08:45:01 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Callie, please drop the straw man parade.

I have no issue whatsoever with lesbians.  My very BEST friend in the world, who happens to be a LESBIAN, would certainly challenge your silly claim.  YOU made the point that married lesbians weren't an issue, and weren't commented on, because people don't see lesbian sex as real sex.  My point, which you obviously continue to miss, was how does that explain why in every one of these "DL" and "married homosexual" discussions on GAY and LESBIAN websites, the focus is entirely on gay married men.  The reason I highlighted lesbians is because it challenges your claim that it's because "people" don't see lesbian sex as "real sex" and I doubt that this explanation would explain why LESBIANS are never at a loss for comments on the evil married gay men but NEVER say a peep about married lesbians.  Kay?

I challenge you to go to the archives of this, or ANY gay/lesbian website and find a comment where married lesbians are chastised for deceiving and using their husbands.  You can find scores of stories and thousands of comments on married gay men and how awful they are for what they "did" to their wives but I've never seen a single one that even brings up married lesbians.

Your patriarchal scenario might explain the phenomenon in the straight male world (which I acknowledged in my comment) but it doesn't explain the descrepancy in the gay and lesbian world; especially the lesbian world.  That was my question.  It still is.

By the way I never insinuated that you were an idiot.  Throughout all of your faux outrage about how I insulted you and your ranting about our male dominated society you failed to answer the simple question in my comment. 

I'll ask it again and I'll try to phrase it in a way that doesn't make you feel oppressed or talked down to.  Why are discussions on GLBT websites, among gay men and lesbians, about married homo/bisexuals and how they deceive, use, take advantage of, cheat on and abandon their spouses, EXCLUSIVELY focused on gay men with narry a report or a discussion about married lesbians?

I think this is a fair and resonable question.  Rather than becoming outraged about imagined boogyMEN perhaps you might want to give some thoughtful consideration to what makes US in the gay community so susceptable to the same gender biases that we detest in the straight world. 

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by: Zeke @ Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 15:57:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Outraged?

Please...if you think my comments here have been "outraged" then you apparently haven't read many of MY comments.

Anyway, my friend, you have some issues that won't be resolved here.  Feel free to continue to think what you want of me.  It really means nothing to me.

I've made an attempt to discuss with you possible explanations as to WHY lesbian infidelity may get ignored, while gay male infidelity gets the spotlight, even in gay society.  In fact, I've pointed to the fact that as products of a patriarchial society we carry our beliefs about gender, sexuality, and fidelity with us, even when we know better.

You don't want to listen or have a civilized conversation?  Very well.  Sad thing is, I think there were probably points we could have agreed on, but we'll never know.

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by: callie @ Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 17:59:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And you've just been a doll through all this. You act as if you haven't been hostile at all...

Project much.

Sadly, I think you're right that we could have agreed on some points but you seem more intent on marching in the straw man, um I mean straw person, parade rather than actually having the civil conversation you claim to want.

Keep ranting and raving about the male dominated world and blaming all the world's, and your, problems on us evil men and you'll be happy; at least in your own mind.  

But hey, who needs to think when you can just blame everything on the boogeyMEN.

Take care.

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by: Zeke @ Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 20:40:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Callie, I want to apologize for being hostile to you.

This issue frustrates me terribly but that is no reason for me to be confrontational with you.  I REGULARLY enjoy your comments.  I know that you are not ignorant and I know that you are not normally confrontational without cause.  I do sometimes disagree with your shoe-horning "male domination" and "patriarchy" to explain the genesis of certain evils where I think it just doesn't fit, or at least doesn't fully explain the reason for a social, cultural or theological problem but I do respect your opinion.  I FULLY understand that patriarchy, etc. OFTEN are factors but I just think it becomes too easy to blame them for every evil in the world.  I also think that we assume that males don't suffer under a patriarchal system or that women are in no way responsible for the maintenance of that system.  Those observations can be left for future discussions.

I am a SCREAMING feminist/masculist/humanist an in as much I challenge gender biases regardless of the gender harmed or the gender benefited.

I hope you will accept my apology and that we can go on without malice from here.

Take care.

Zeke

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by: Zeke @ Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 15:48:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Accepted

I also think that we assume that males don't suffer under a patriarchal system or that women are in no way responsible for the maintenance of that system. 

Have you ever read Phyllis Chesler's Woman's (In)humanity to Woman?  Fabulous book and so many times I sat there reading it and nodding my head in agreement.  Sometimes we are the worst ones for continuing to perpetuate patriarchy and we turn on other women, even lesbians do this to other lesbians, who work to break the viscious cycle that it has put us under.  Lesbians judge the bulldykes for not being feminine and sometimes we throw shit at the gay men who are too effiminate.  In other words, those that don't fit the gender stereotypes that have been enforced on society since the beginning of time.

I agree that women are as much at fault as men for allowing it to continue.  Recent studies even show that women, esp. young girls, are becoming as violent as their male counterparts.  To swipe a concept from Harry Potter, we all have the potential for good or evil, but it's how we use it that counts.

To be fair, we have to acknowledge that the patriarchy wouldn't exist if it wasn't for men.  It was started by men for men and women accepted it, empowered it, and encouraged it, usually because there was some kind of payoff for following the patriarchial power structure (i.e. financial benefit, social status, etc.).

The blame falls on all shoulders in some way.  Like the old saying goes, if you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem.

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by: callie @ Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 16:49:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Additionally

We have to acknowledge that average men are often the victims of rich and powerful men and women AND women have gotten some benefits from the patriarchal system. 

I think it's time to FULLY open our eyes to the complexity of the gender bias problem.  Until we do that we will never really begin to dismantle the system that oppresses and devalues both men and women.

I strongly suggest that you check out the book The Myth of Male Power.  It challenges many of the things that we've come to believe about how and who gender biases disadvantage and/or benefit.  It was written by a lifelong feminist who started to see that the system was negatively affecting both men and women even though most people tend to ignore or deny the male negative side.  The book was endorsed by Gloria Steinem, on of MY heroes and is certainly a thought provoking read.

Anyway, take care Callie.  Hope to have more civil, kind and thought provoking discussions with you in the future.

Zeke

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by: Zeke @ Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 19:17:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Bisexual Down Low

This is why there is so much animosity on our part in the Gay and Lesbian community towards the majority of bisexuals and they wonder why?  I think the LGBT community should drop the "B' altogether, let them manage on their own. The majority of them live secret married lives or live with socalled girlfriends and probably vote against our right to marry.  They disgust me. They are for the most part nothing but hypocrites, cheats and liars living with a doublestandard.  For what its worth, I don't buy the bisexual orientation one bit.  These are people who can't or refuse to admit that they're gay.  Having sex with a woman and having a child doesn't necessarily make you straight either, anyone can do that if they so choose.  Its mostly about shame and stigma, not being one of "them", meaning us.  Despicable.  They deserve to be outed exploiting our lives and sexuality for their own ends.

 

AnthonyG, NYC.

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by: AnthonyG @ Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 09:52:15 AM CDT

Case in point...

This comment is a good example of what I was talking about. 

It’s all about those evil gay MEN with wives and girlfriends.  It's as if lesbians with husbands and boyfriends don't exist.

I won't go into the other issues I have with AnthonyG's comment.

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by: Zeke @ Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 16:10:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Whether it's made an issue in media or not, lesbian marriages ending are brutal

One of my  friends came out quite late in life, her 3 children ranged from 16yo. to their twenties. when her husband realized she was in a relationship with a woman, he turned her sons against her, and she had no contact with them until after each became adults. Later she reconciled with her sons, but the years she was kept from them hurt her deeply.

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by: underbear1 @ Sat Jul 28, 2007 at 21:28:35 PM CDT

unbear1, I always enjoy your comments (and Callie's too for that matter) but...

This is another example of the disparate way we tend to look at married gay men as opposed to married lesbians.

You tell a story of a woman who was having a relationship with a woman while married to a man and you go on to tell us how victimized she was by him.

The scenario you described happens to gay married men ALL the time and you NEVER here anyone present the man as victim (not that they should).

I personally know a number of men who had the above happen to them and all they ever hear is how they deserved it for what they did to their wives.

How does the very EXACT same act make a man a villain and a woman a victim.

Perhaps you can explain.

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by: Zeke @ Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 15:33:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Whether male or female it's between the ADULTS

No break up which doesn't have abuse or neglect of children, should seperate children from either parent.

Straights I've found are VERY apt to use the "queer card" in a divorce to ban custody or visitation.My first lover who's ex wife was going to attempt blackmailing him with outing him to get certain possesions, was stopped by HER attorney, that he was NOT going to allow that sh*t. That doesn't happen often and I have several previous married friends (male and female) who had ugly divorces where their orientation was used to deny joint custody.

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by: underbear1 @ Sun Jul 29, 2007 at 15:58:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]