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The Christian Civic League of Maine's Mike Hein calls Pam's House Blend:
"a leading source of radical homosexual propaganda, anti-Christian bigotry, and radical transgender advocacy."

He is "praying that Pam Spaulding will "turn away from her wicked and sinful promotion of homosexual behavior." (CCLM's web site, 10/15/07)


Ex-gay "Christian" activist James Hartline on Pam:
"I have been mocked over and over again by ungodly and unprincipled anti-christian lesbians."
(from "Six Years In Sodom: From The Journal Of James Hartline," 9/4/2006, written from the "homosexual stronghold" of Hillcrest in San Diego).

"Pam is a 'twisted lesbian sister' and an 'embittered lesbian' of the 'self-imposed gutteral experiences of the gay ghetto.'" -- 9/5/2008



Peter LaBarbera of Americans for Truth Against Homosexuality heartily endorses the Blend, calling Pam:

A "vicious anti-Christian lesbian activist."
(Concerned Women for America's radio show [9:15], 1/25/07)

"A nutty lesbian blogger."
(MassResistance radio show [16:25], 2/3/07)


Pam's House Blend always seems to find these sick f*cks. The area of the country she is in? The home state of her wife? I know, they are everywhere. Pam just does such a great job of bringing them out into the light.
--Impeach Bush


who monitors yours Bevis ?? Just thought I would drop you a line,so the rest of your life is not wasted.
--"Joe"

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An Online Magazine in the Reality-Based Community.



The Right Way To Be LGB Or T?

by: Autumn Sandeen

Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 17:30:00 PM EDT



Is there a right way to be gay? A right way to be lesbian or bisexual? By that I mean, are there universal constructs that many in these subcommunities of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community embrace as models for the entireties of their subcommunities?

Well, I'm not as immersed in the gay subcommunity as perhaps I should be to know what the gay "universal" constructs are, but I am aware of some "universal" models in the lesbian and bisexual subcommunities.

For example, in the lesbian subcommunity, there's some typing in play, with labels like lipstick lesbian, Chapstick lesbian, femme, fierce femme, blue jean femme, pillow queen, butch, soft butch, stone butch, dyke, andro-dyke, sporty dyke, power dyke, bulldyke, diesel dyke...One Way Signwe could go on and on here with the lesbian labels. Per a certain orthodoxy of being lebian, it seems you must be able to be subcategorized as a recognized subtype of lesbian.

And, for a second example, in the bisexual subcommunity, I know there are some who want to impose a 50-50 rule for attraction to the "opposite sex," meaning that one is equally attracted to those who identify as male, and those who are identified as female. In this model of bisexuality, if let's say one is attracted  more to women than men, then one isn't considered a true bisexual because one is "supposed" to be equally attracted to men and women.

In other words, there are some in the broader LGBT community who want to impose universal standards of what it is to be lesbian, gay, or bisexual on broader communities, and deviation from these standards isn't acceptable or "allowed."

In the trans subcommunity, we have similar kinds of orthodoxies. Among the trans orthodoxies, there are those who could be identified as trans who seek to impose standards of "the best" way one is to identify, and the "right" way one is supposed to transition -- if one identifies a transsexual.

This past week, I've had two classic transsexuals tell me I should reconsider transitioning (as in I'm not really a transsexual), and a transman another transsexual woman tell me to "hurry up and transition already." In all of these cases, trans people (or people self-identified as classic transsexuals, people of transsexual history, etc.) appear to have embraced constructs of what it is to be transsexual and/or transgender, and have attempted to externally impose a model of what it is to be transsexual and/or transgender on me.

And, of course, it's not just me that they attempt to impose their models on, but on the entire trans community -- or trans subcommunity of the LGBT community.

To quote my friend Gwen Smith:

It's okay to have a construct that works for oneself. The problem is when you impose it, unwillingly, on others...We should be the *last* to impose constructs involving identity or expression on others.

And yet "we" do impose constructs on our own communities and subcommunities.

The "should" I wish I could impose on our broader community is the one of embracing the diversity of people and experiences within all of our broader communities and subcommunities. Embracing our differences while searching for our commonalties -- those are "shoulds" I could live with.

But then, I'd be imposing my construct of the perfect LGBT community on everyone too. D'oh!

Update: Corrected where I got the identification of a trans person wrong. My sincerest apologies for getting the identification inversed.

~~~~~
Further reading:
* Transmissions: What's In A Name?
* Transmissions: I'm okay -- you're a freak
* The Pink Pink Elephant: Whose Community Is It Anyway?: White Privilege in the LGBT Community

Autumn Sandeen :: The Right Way To Be LGB Or T?
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It is anti feminist to impose
such standards and demands. It implies a heirarchical order that you have to comply with.

Guess what?

She doesn't have to.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid


I am so glad there is no gay "doctrine"
to which I must conform.  That I allow myself to be who I am without any apologies is my construct of "gay".  All the labels in our communities do nothing but divide us and show that we are just as fallible as straights.  My marriage is not anywhere near the "straight" construct.  My work does not define who I am.  I am what I decide to be, and damn anyone else who thinks otherwise.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.-- Thomas Jefferson

Call me naive
but I've always thought doing it repeatedly with members of your own sex was proof positive of being gay or lesbian.  

or
at least wanting to do it.

[ Parent ]
Or at least having wanted to do it sometime in the past. :)


[ Parent ]
Heh.
I've often wondered this myself, where is this big book of what constitutes being "gay"?

I've had exes constantly accusing me of not being "gay" enough.  I never really understood that.


Totally agree
I joke around that except for the fact that I am married to a man, I am heterosexual.  I couldn't care less about clubs, Academy Award parties, what who is wearing, and all those stereotypical things people think a person needs to be interested in in order to be gay.  

I've had friends ask me in all seriousness if I really was gay.  I've had to explain to them that there is only ONE thing that makes a person gay.  And if you're doing THAT, well, that pretty much seals the deal.

I also believe that there is only ONE thing that makes a person transgendered, and that is how an individual perceives him or herself.  That's it.  Nothing more and nothing less.


[ Parent ]
Oops... I know where the big book is.
I had to borrow the "Big Book Of Gay" and "Teh Homosexshul Agenda" to borrow as a "step"/ reach the Blend's cash register on Day #1 and forgot to put them back- here they are:

Sorry; my bad!

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[ Parent ]
Damn Louise
That's alot of reading.....

[ Parent ]
If someone starts telling you their RIGHT or PERFECT way you should be L,G,B, orT
Look them in the eye, pull up your BIG BOY/GURL panties
and say...."Jump Up My QUEER A$$!"

If you stay to be beaten up, beaten down, shamed, blamed, and tattooed, then you need to own HALF of the responsibility. If you walk away, while flipping them off, your part in the confrontation is minimal ...at most.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


now I covet all those cool dyke subcatagories
how's chapstick diesel 'mo ...sound?

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
In certain trans circles
saying that will result in being called a transfag.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
"it's not what you're called, it's what you answer to"
and hon, I've been called MUCH worse

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
Does
this also include the proper use of pronouns?

Let me answer your question with a question...

...Are you indirectly asking permission to  call people who identify as female as "he" and "him" (and perhaps vice versa) here at Pam's House Blend?

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
No
I was referring to a statement made by a poster back in another thread. I reported it.  

[ Parent ]
And I apologized.

I misread a pervious comment of her's where she identified as a "transsexual Dad," and I misread it as her identifying as a transman.

I apologized for making the huge blunder.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
:)
It's always best to err on the side of caution.  

[ Parent ]
And now I misspell "previous'!

Eep!

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
I may have answered at least part of your wish
in my diary today, Autumn...a model for acceptance and co-responsibility as a part of a feminist theory

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
I cast no stones
As one whose fingers sometimes misstep when they do the walking on the keyboard, I'd be the last to criticize that typo.

But the deliciously Freudian slip aspect of "pervious" simply had me LOL even if I was not ROTFLOL (contraindicated in the office).

No "eep" necessary - I am still smiling over that,and those endorphins are bathing my brain. :)


[ Parent ]
How do you do GAY RIGHT?
practise, practise, practise

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


You caused me to think deep thoughts!
A rarity in many ways, but here's my stab at it.

There is no one right way or one wrong way.  Here are a few things to keep in mind though for doing anything right:

- First do no harm.

- Treat other people the way you want to be treated.

- Don't judge other people solely by your standard unless you want to be judged solely by their standard (I sometimes have a problem with that one).

- If you make a mess, clean it up & if you find something broken, try to fix it (as opposed to my brother's philosophy of it's clean mess it up & if you find something working, break it - although it seems to work for him).

- Realize that we're all different & accept it.

Lastly lighten up, enjoy yourself, and don't take yourself so seriously!


[ Parent ]
embrace diversity, and F*CK EM if they can't take a joke


"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
I love this, Phil
#2 has been the way I have lived my life- I'm working on the rest! ;)

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[ Parent ]
50-50 rule
This is exactly why I avoid the "bisexual" label and identify as a gay men.

I'm 70-30. That doesn't mean that I'm not bisexual. But, there are many people in our community who think that being bisexual means you have sex with a male and a female at the same time or in equal measure. I just don't have the energy to deal with educating them.

Real life is different from the online world. I can write about this here and not worry about how my friends will react. In real life, I'm a closet bisexual and I'm not planning on coming out. Call me weak. But, the consequences are just too great.

When my girlfriend moved in with me in 1989, most of my gay friends rejected me. It was very difficult to lose friends that I'd had for years. The intolerance that came from my gay friends was just as bad as what comes from the religious right. They said horrible, vile things about me and my girlfriend. She was ridiculed for being in a relationship with a fag -- and that came from gay men, not straight folks.

After that relationship ended, I moved to Los Angeles. I was very relectant to reestablish ties with the gay community, but a wonderful man started coming into the bookstore where I worked just to flirt with me and I fell in love with him. We were together for eight years and during that time, I decided to keep being bi a secret from my new circle of friends.

On top of all this, I have other bisexuals who don't consider me a "true" bisexual. Screw that crap. I don't need it in my already complicated life (health issues, money problems, relationships, etc.)

There is a small possibility that I could fall in love with a woman again. If that happens, I know that I will be a pariah in the LGBT community. That's just how it is. LGBT people are just as intolerant and hateful when it comes to this issue. I'd be treated as a "traitor" and my sexuality will be viewed with disgust.

I know this will be case with most of my friends because I've already tested them with hypothetical questions. I would have to choose between them and being in a relationship with a woman. No doubt about it.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


Fritz
as someone who has been judged "too" something or "not enough" something else or the "wrong" some other thing myself, this gay transman would certainly not consider you a "traitor" to anything as long as it is not to your own self.

I can echo some of the experiences you describe: the rejection and dismissal and downright insulting kind of thing from within GBLT as well as straight communities.  All I can say is I know there are also plenty of accepting and good folks out there.

Even here.

Jake
Phoenix


[ Parent ]
hi
as a gay transman myself it has also been difficult dealing with trans people who don't think i'm trans enough (because i'm not very masculine, personality-wise) and dealing with gay men, who don't consider me a real 'man'.  i can't win.  all i can do is be true to myself.  the funny part is a called a fag all the time, which is of course offensive, but atleast its more in alignment with my self-image than what other lbtq people see.  ugh.  

[ Parent ]
That illustrates a danger to which we are all vulnerable
And that is investing too heavily in the "us vs. them" mentality.  Look, we're all on the same team, sometimes we tend to lose sight of that though.

[ Parent ]
@Fritz
I mentioned a previous partner of mine who coached kids, he left to be with the mother of a student, because he feared me being openly gay, threatened his CLOSET.
That to me was cowardly. Had he fallen for a woman partner, (instead of using a woman to pass as straight), it would have been no different to me, if he'd found another man he preferred. Stuff happens, and I'm a big boy...most of the time.
I know his woman partner won't satisfy him (unless she wears a strap-on), and he'll go cruise parks.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
i have to be honest,
i can understand if your gay friends felt betrayed if you had told them you were gay gay gay and then moved in with a woman.  sometimes it's not about being gay or bi or straight, it's about honesty.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.


[ Parent ]
"if you had told them you were gay gay gay"
It really didn't go down like that.

Most of them simply met me when I was in a relationship with a man.

I don't recall telling anyone that I was gay. They just assumed that to be the case because I was living as a gay man. I never hid the fact that I had ex-girlfriends. I kind of figured that they had accepted that.

About a year after my boyfriend was killed in a car accident, my girlfriend moved in with me. She was a coworker who I had known for three years. Our relationship started about six months after my boyfriend died. I didn't keep that a secret until after she moved in with me. We had been socializing with my gay friends for months.

I didn't start hiding my bisexuality until after I moved to L.A.

I occassionally date women. In fact, since I moved to Phoenix I have only dated one woman and have not had contact with the LGBT community here. When my gay friends in California ask me if I'm seeing anyone, I tell them that I'm not. I know that's not honest. But, it is better than the alternative.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
I'm so sorry.
That just sucks. No one should be subjected to that crap. Not everyone is "50/50 bi" or "100% gay/lesbian". It's OK, and I don't see why anyone should reject you just because you fall somewhere between 3 and 6 on the Kinsey Scale.

Btw, have you ever checked out BiNet? Perhaps they can help with some info that you can direct your friends toward. They also have links to bi support groups.

I'm always pissed at the "gay power queens" who think that it's always all about them and ostracize the Ls, Bs, Ts, and everyone else in the LGBT community. I'm so sorry you've had to experience their sh*t, and promise that not all of us queens are like that!

Act on Principles and make equality happen.  


[ Parent ]
In my experience within the gay male community...
...I have learned not to get "burned" by bi men.  I wanted a long-term relationship, and figured my chances are better with a guy who is gay rather than bi.  How can a man compete with a woman sexually?  Its such a different experience that its alien to gay men.  Plus, I dated a bi guy once for 6 months, never figuring he was in any other relationship until I saw him walking home from work with some woman.  I went outside the restaraunt and confronted him and found out it was his WIFE OMG!  He hid this from me for six months?  How could I have been so ignorant.  Anyway, I never dated anyone who told me they were bi from then on.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.-- Thomas Jefferson

[ Parent ]
There are SO many gay men to fall for
I'll go through all of them, and if I have time, later I'll browse the selection of Bi and straight men.
*grins

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
An anecdote from earlier this year
I have two dear friends, a male-female married couple. They are both bisexual, and he's genderqueer. During the Civil Unions battle earlier this year, they were of course big supporters. They don't consider themselves "allies," they are part of the "family." It's merely an accident that the soul each person wanted to have as a lifemate happened to be in the body of someone of another gender. They've both been in same-sex relationships before. They are bi. They are part of the family. When they showed up to rally for civil unions and take part in signature gathering, a lot of people told them that they should say they are allies. They refused, and identified as B, which is how they see themselves. They took some flack for it, but not a lot; Hawaii is pretty laid back like that. I can't imagine how people in a politicized gay environment would act.

I think a lot of the resentment towards those of us who are bi (there I go identifying as bi instead of lesbian again) has to do with the fact that if we are in a relationship with a person of another sex, we can "pass." We get all the straight privilege without actually being straight.

As I've stated previously, I identify primarily as a lesbian now for emotional and mental reasons rather than sexual. Don't get me wrong, a cute boy will still turn my head. But I'm not interested in having relationships with men ever again. Just not going to happen. Not the least of which is because I'm in love with an amazing woman, with whom I want to spend the rest of my life. It's merely an accident that the soul of the person I want to spend my life with happens to be in another female body. But I don't find male bodies or minds nearly as interesting as I used to. I think being in abusive relationships with men had a lot to do with that.

In the end, to each their own, and those who don't like it and will pass judgment can suck it sideways.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
It gets more to the question of being honest
The closeted partner I was with for a year, living with me, sexually active constantly....would never inform a female partner he was BI, he would present himself as straight. "Down Low" life is based on dishonesty, and unsuspecting women, who have no other reason to believe they are at risk for hepatitus B or HIV, are put at risk by their silent partners.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
Good topic
Yes, the gay community has an abundance of labels; I guess it's a natural human tendency.  With the labels come boundaries, which, sadly, might be expected in a community that has had rigid boundaries enforced against them.  I hope we see less of that in the future, though.  I hope we truly are, in the words of my old feminist mom's 70s children's recording, "free to be..."  While I'm definitely gay, I don't fit a lot of the gay subculture's ready-made labels for me, and that's ok.  At the same time, living in the gay community has helped me appreciate others' journeys a whole lot better.  I think I have a better appreciation of human diversity, and I really love it when people don't conform to stereotypes, old or new.  For example, I don't think bisexuals have to be 50/50; sexuality is a continuum, not a dichotomy.  Yet I think one can fully accept one's bisexuality while committing to one person at a time...

Peace,

noahsdad  


I'm so sick of these stereotypes.
I'm sick of the date asking me why I can't "butch it up", then have someone else ask me why me legs are so hairy for someone who's "supposed to be a twink". It saddens me that some in our community have so much internalized the constant attacks on our community from the radical right that they feel the need to "police" the community and badger all of us who don't always fit into neat little "gay stereotypes".

Act on Principles and make equality happen.  

Before...
My wife and I used to be concerned about labels, but for the past several decades we've simply lived our lives and tried to be the best humans we could.  Labels don't mean much to us anymore -- except for the label 'Grandma' which we revel in.  :-)

It never fails to amaze me
...that members of a community like ours, where each and every one of us has had to fight like hell against mainstream society to express our true selves, can then turn around and show no hesitation in telling OTHER members of our same community how they're "not doing it right."

The hell with pigeonholers!  I fit comfortably into certain categories, and I exist comfortably outside others, and it's nobody's business where I choose to set myself down.  That's what I ask from others, so it's the very least I can do to extend that same courtesy TO others!

In other words:  Do your own thing.  You're beautiful, and don't let anyone tell you different.


my experience among lesbians in the communities i've lived in
is that the lesbian sub-group labels are used playfully, sometimes self-assigned with sincerity and occasionally flung at someone with derision.  but i've never witnessed anyone expressing expectation that anyone else should/must adhere to the "rules" of any of them.  

just wondering what a biodiesel dyke might be like... :D

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Lurleen on Twitter.


Labels ... labels ... labels
In regards to the B in LGBT .... how the dickins does anyone come up with a percentile ?????

I find men and women equally attractive and would jump in bed with either (or preferably both at de same time in me younger days) so I guess that makes me 50-50.

HOWEVER .....

If I had to choose one over the other to spend the rest of my life with it would be a man because I tolerate men better than women.

SO ............ I guess that makes me a 50/50 Neanderthal !

Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. - Edward R Murrow




Bisexual and Polyamorous are not the same thing
I have been told by people who identify as bi, that many bi folks are monagamous, or at least as monagamous as anyone else.  Jumping in the sack with one or more of each at the same time might be "bi" for at least some of the participants, but could likely as not be poly for some as well, even of the whole group might be seen from the oputside as poly.  The dynamics will differ based on a group's participants.


[ Parent ]
as for labels, thankfully it seems I outlived the vile racist terms
The Queen's English book used to list heinous terms, which nearly always ended with __-queen.
They were for Whites dating Blacks, Whites dating Asians, etc. I never heard that sh*t in the lesbian community...to their credit.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


as for labels, thankfully it seems I outlived the vile racist terms
The Queen's English book used to list heinous terms, which nearly always ended with __-queen.
They were for Whites dating Blacks, Whites dating Asians, etc. I never heard that sh*t in the lesbian community...to their credit.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


Listen more closely
to what is said if a Lesbian in a clique of rad-fems falls in love with a woman of trans history; or with a woman who came out later in life, or if a woman from a clique of Femmes falls for a Butch...

We have our own multitude of sins, which are disgraceful.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid


[ Parent ]
Fuck the radfems
Their sex-negativity can be just as fascist as fundie christians' and with just as snooty an air of moral superiority about it. Some of them have been positively horrific to me for not being a "gold star" lesbian. And when they found out I'm into D/s? You'd have thought I'd dismembered a puppy in front of their eyes.

Live and let live is not a mantra by which they live.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
My profesora had unkind words for the rad-fems
and as she was a polyglot, they were in multiple languages.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
And here is your Gold Star for Lesbianism, Keori
Presented to you by the Maureen Hennessey Foundation for the Advancement of the Cunnilingual Arts

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
Sniff!
I'm so proud to be her Mom...

(no puppies were hurt in the making of this comment, btw)

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[ Parent ]
Whereas, KEORI has lent her pen
and fingers and tongue and toys to the causes, support, nurturing and multiple orasmic pleasure of Lesbians unselfishly, we the undersigned to declare her to have met the criteria to be hereinafter declared a

GOLD STAR LESBIAN
and Lesbionic, certified to drive Lesbarus

Maureen E. Hennessey
Member, Heterodoxy
Member Secte d'Anardrynes

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid


[ Parent ]
**bows deeply**
I'd like to thank the Academy...wait, wrong award.

You guys are awesome. I'm suddenly feeling a much stronger imperative to trade in my Honda Civic for a 2010 Lesbaru Impreza Sport.

**does the Happy Lesbian Butt Dance**

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
I'd call for a speech
But if it involves ventriliquism....uh...nevermind

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
I identify as a bi-sexual
It's an identity not a behavior.  The bi community served as a kind of refuge for people who felt excluded from the established gay and lesbian communities.  From the earliest years of the bi community, significant numbers of trans gender people have always been involved in it.  

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

I only know the "right way" to be myself
and it is subject to change

LOL
I like that, wish I had thought of that little gem.

Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. - Edward R Murrow




[ Parent ]
Within the trans community, this is taboo
to discuss what is and is not, what could be and culd not be.

Indeed, part of the problem is that it has willy nilly decided to go off and start creating random concepts that have meaning and value strictly within the trans community itself -- the moment you step out of the trans community, you have only occasional intersections, most typically multiples, not singularities.

Within the broader LGBT community, in fact there is one that I find sorta, well, annoying.

You see, the LGBT community has straight members.  Not allies -- not people who are straight and stand beside us.  But actually bent as all hell straight people who are fully members of the community.

And it is the sense that they are not allowed, not enabled, not heard with the same equality that all the other letters of the unending acronym are trying to be heard with, that often causes some rifts, as a lot of the straight part of the LGBT group often develops the underlying basis for much prejudice that flares up down the road:

resentment.

This is especially important to note, right now, as there is a very fast growing resentment of the cisGLB community on behalf of what is predominantly straight transfolks.

And that resentment has a very marked quality that is not homophobic, but is absolutely not friendly.

I just finished writing a brief series on the topic of all this "who is what" and "doing it the right way" stuff that skewers a lot of the cherished beliefs, the particular taboos, the golden calves of the Trans experience.

Consider this submission to the ultimate peer review board, lol: http://www.dyssonance.com/Coll...

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


Well, just ask...

...Helen Boyd or Kim Pearson what it's like to be a trans advocate when it's a family member who's trans, and not themselves. They get the "colonizing the space" kind of comments directed at them that some womyn-born-womyn famously directed agains trans people to identify trans women as female parodies.

As Dallas Denny famously said about trans people/trans community, "We eat our own."

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
Easy enough, lol
I'll see her in October, of course, but knowing her, prolly sooner.

Speaking thereof -- planning to make a drive to Phoenix in October?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Dys, sis, just raise hell and if they cannot take a joke,
to the devil with them.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
For Those Commenting On Bi-Sexuals ...
read my two diary entries and leave a comment if you wish,

"I'm Understanding The B In LGBT" http://www.pamshouseblend.com/...

and "Here's A Question For You To Mull Over" http://www.pamshouseblend.com/...

Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. - Edward R Murrow




Labels are for beer bottles!
I'm generally referred to as a "bear." That's a good physical description of me and of the kind of guys I find most attractive, but I don't seriously claim the label, because I enjoy the company and friendship of all types of folks.  

I would not want to be one of those who only travels in a pack of men who all look exactly the same, do all the same things, tend to think all the same thoughts.  I've found it hard to make many friends in the "bear community" because I spend so much time with other people of different sexual orientations, different physical types, and of both genders.  I wish the bear world weren't so insular, but given the choice of a narrow experience of life and a broad one, I'll keep the latter.


What is a "Classic Transsexual" Supposed to be?
Over at womenborntranssexual.com I've asked that question several different times using different wording so I'm sure those using that self label have understood the question.

So far no one has given me a real answer. The reality is and was that even 40 years ago a wide spectrum of folks with a wide range of sexual orientations sought SRS.  The group sessions of the gender clinics then were like those of today with a mix of young and middle age transitioners.

One big difference is that in 1969 one could be poor and still pull together enough money for SRS.

I tried to put forth WBT as a way of saying women of a transsexual history but even that one has had the same sort of more woman than thou hassles with some post-ops attacking the lesbians, especially those lesbians who are in relationships with other WBTs.

I think people would rather call names and spout fictions while fighting each other than work for a common good.  Of course some 40 years of ultra right wing values indoctrination probably has something to do with that one.

Those who work for the good either the transsexual or transgender communities can all expect to get trashed for their efforts and those trying to end the fighting between the TG faction vs the TS faction get more than their share.

On a more positive note those doing the trashing are a small group and are not reflective of a largely apathetic majority.


Actually;
You have been given the answer several times.

Classic TS / HBS etc...

are man and women who transition and move on to live a normal life. I know you abhor normality, but many strive to live a nice boring normal life where they don't stand out, where they can get married (postoperative women can marry if their documentation is in order)

They want to lead the same kind of lives their parents lead.

They don't want to turn their identity or sexual orientation into some kind of political cause or wear same on their shoulder.

They don't even participate in Hetero-Pride marches.

That is what a Classic TS is.

LiZ


[ Parent ]
Strangely enough, that's not the definiton given at "classic transsexual" blogs
funny that...

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
There's nothing like the "classics"
Sometimes, I've seen "classic" transsexual used to mean the "exaggerated femme" type that fits the stereotype that used to be used in some psychiatric circles (and still, at places like Toronto's notorious Clarke Institute) - the type ridiculed by noted birth-genital-centric transphobes like Paul McHugh and Germaine Greer.

More often, I think, "classic transsexual" is used in a somewhat broader sense to mean the individual who transitions socially, hormonally, and surgically.

(And sometimes, it includes that tiny minority who have been excluded from surgery by medical conditions.)

I still find myself apologizing for using "WBT" with a slightly different meaning from your original intent - the "BT" part carries the (to me) essential idea that one who is "born transsexual" isn't really a member of the originally-assigned sex.

As to these who work for the good getting trashed? There's always the well-known adage "No good deed goes unpunished."

:)


[ Parent ]
Classic BS
So LiZ to be "classic" one must be heteronormative and stealth.

I guess that leaves out Christine Jorgensen who was an active supporter of the gay and lesbian communities as well as a lecturer on the subject of transsexualism.

Many of us have straight ordinary jobs.  Lynn conway's success stories point that one out.

On the other hand many of the "classic transsexuals" come off as obsessive trolls who put down anyone not complying with their peculiar standards.

There is no right or wrong way to cope with having been born with transsexualism.  One may be straight G/L/B or even asexual.  The only thing post-SRS folks have in common is having had SRS and that one is a big leveler that allows me to tell the so called "classic transsexuals" to cut the BS. Or is that HBS?  

Either way putting others down doesn't make you any realer.  It just shows your bigotry.


[ Parent ]
Ummmm
There is no right or wrong way to cope with having been born with transsexualism.  One may be straight G/L/B or even asexual.  The only thing post-SRS folks have in common is having had SRS and that one is a big leveler that allows me to tell the so called "classic transsexuals" to cut the BS. Or is that HBS?  

In the same paragraph you are saying you don't care then you trurn around and impose your own standard on the majority of the 120,000 women of operative history.

Being a lesbian and a woman who had her birth defect corrected, I can tell you there are plenty of lesbians who consider themselves to be classic TS.
You derrive your perception of what it is to be a classic TS from the words of 2 people.
The Opinions of 2 people don't make a consensus

LiZ.  


[ Parent ]
There are always different definitions
Definitions can be slippery and require context sometimes.  One might well use the "exaggerated femme and attracted to men" stereotype in order to describe "classic" in an historical sense relating to MTFs/WBTs in terms of the hoop-jumping expectations of witch-doctor gatekeepers, or one could be in a different context use "classic" as meaning social, hormonal and surgical (or at least a persistent strong desire for surgical) transition.

In the latter sense, "classic" would allow one to distinguish out those who view "transsexual" as involving gender fluidity or a third sex assignment - these people can still be understood as having the same underlying phenomena and causations as any others with HBS, but whose self-experience and self-perception is different.

Example? There's a hint of a "non-classic" identity in Kate Bornstein's postoperative self-analysis in the early pages of Gender Outlaw.


[ Parent ]
I Don't Need to Distinguish Between Post-Op
As far as I am concerned post-ops are post-ops.  Some are more likable than others, smarter than others.

Dr. Benjamin treated both those who came out at 20 and those who were married with children and came out in middle age.

I doubt he would have been amused by the antics of the self proclaimed "classic transsexuals"

Although I just has a funny image cross my mind of classic transsexuals with bee hives, straight skits and girdles grooving to 50s bubblegum as they wile away the hours in the retirement home.


[ Parent ]
That image is almost viral
Don't forget the cone-cupped bras.  :)

I am going to have to check out the usage of "classic transsexual" since it seems like I am not up-to-date: is that the current vogue term for the SOTP?


[ Parent ]
Things have chaanged
since the days when the Transgender folk knew they were different from the Transsexual folk.

There is a core group who are still rooted in old school thoughts regarding what transition and what being TS is all about. They and I see the difference, we have made the leap from our past into the female half of society.

LiZ


[ Parent ]
The implication here seems to be that your way of seein things is better...

...than other people who perceive things differently than you.

Am I reading that implication correctly, LiZ, or are you trying to say something other than what I'm reading in between the lines of your statement?

The reason I'm asking is because of a discussion I had with my therapist about some of the identifications of some post-operative folk. Since she was a member of WPATH, I wanted to get her take on Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS), as well as some of the other identities (such as "classic transsexual" and "women of transsexual history").

She told me that WPATH and The APA will never embrace the HBS diagnosis because its proponents are perceived by WPATH members as bigots.

Her comment on "classic transsexual" was that it was a narrow interpretation of sex and gender, and much has been learned about sex and gender since Harry Benjamin wrote The Transsexual Phenomenon. In fact, by Harry Benjamin's definitions of "True Transsexual", you wouldn't qualify because you identify as a lesbian. So if you went back to The Transsexual Phenomenon, or the original Harry Benjamin Standards Of Care, you personally wouldn't have qualified as a transsexual because of your sexual orientation.

So, although you are certainly free to self-identify as a "classic transsexual" here at The Blend, as well as in the brick-and-mortar world, I would think you should probably be aware other lesbian-identified persons of operative history and you have expanded Harry Benjamin's original standards to create enough space for yourself to be considered a "classic transsexual."

What I would argue then is that others have done the same thing with standards for transsexual and transgender people that those who agree with you have done by adding non-heterosexual sexual orientations to the definition of "classic transsexual."

Basically, the Harry Benjamin Standards Of Care have been revised over the years to reflect the changes in the medical and psychological understandings of sex and gender. I would expect that the current sixth revision of the document will see a seventh, an eighth, and even perhaps more revisions in upcoming years as understanding of sex and gender expands.

So, I'd argue your view isn't necessarily better or worse than my view on this, it's just different than mine. But, I'd go back to my original post in arguing that my view is one that incorporates my value of embracing diversity better than your view...but in that sense then we're specifically talking about which values I hold in highest value (and as such work to incorporate into my life), and not what values you hold in highest value.

My goals here at PHB include; however, arguing in favor of allowing for diversity, and arguing in favor of having us all embrace as much diversity as possible.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
The HBS
camp are accumulating medical evidence to support their cause. The APA's view on that will be a non issue.

My SO attended a support and social meeting last year. I believe your therapist spoke there, I won't give any names but there is only one female gender therapist within 50 miles of where I live here in Escondido. Now granted I am making a big assumption that this person is in fact the same, but lets run with that assumption for now.
This therapist when asked by the then president of that group regarding HBS and the physical evidence that they were compiling to prove brain sex is a physical phenomenon she skated the issue and simply replied that HBS was a political construct in spite of the fact that at the 2006 WPATH conference two representatives of the HBS group had presented a paper at that event. My SO knows both of those people who presented that paper.

We need to remember a therapist's primary responsibility is to the patient. There is no law that says they have to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth is there?

Actually everywhere but here becaues there is a need to educate and inform I identify as female with no modifiers, as does my SO. the point of even bringing that up is life is easier if you are precised as being just a woman or just female if your documentation is all in order.

Everyone deserves the right to be free from harassment, discrimination and violence rot upon themselves by those who are ignorant or bigoted.

I have been reading this place long enough to know that is a basic principal of what goes on here.

Freedom for some and not; all in all aspects of life is freedom for none in no aspect in life.  


[ Parent ]
Well, accurately
The HBS is aggregating medical evidence from the work done by people who are Not HBS.

So is the APA.  And, in order to get it removed from their book, they will indeed have a say.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Yes there are
I and all of my old school friends and acquaintances have always ween transgender as being the gender fluid term.
Transsexual literally means to traverse the sexes, to change sex as it were.
You can only do that once.  :)

In the last 25 years there has been a lot of hijacking of terms and groups for political reasons and to a lesser extent for validation. It is only human nature to want some sense of normality in your life rather that is living stealth or living as an out and proud TG with your out and proud TG friends. It's normality none the less because it's relative to the person.

About 15 or so years ago the TG community leapt into the post modern movement and decided to deconstruct sex and the sex roles men and woman are comfortable with in the greater society. In doing so they collectively attempted to re write the dictionary. This redefinition involved a large number of unwilling parties. This series of acts I believe is at the heart of the current TG / TS culture war.
The non unified T is more diverse than the LGB combined and is perhaps the smallest segment of that current socio-political alphabet soup.

It is true you can redefine till the Cows reach home, but you always do it without the consent of a large segment of those whom you include in your redefinition.


[ Parent ]
Dictionaries get rewritten all the time
I am reminded of the recent outrage among the Christianist and neo-con folks, when the definition of marriage was changed in the Merriam-Webster dictionary: see definition 1a2 at:

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

covered here at the Blend at:

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/...

Much of the anger from Maggot Gallagher's National Organization "for" Marriage evolves from the whole idea that when marriage is redefined to include same-sex couples, it changes the meaning somehow for opposite-sex couples.

My approach to the definition wars is to try to navigate the minefields by explaining what I mean in a particular context, and trying to understand what other people are saying when they are using the same terms with different meanings.  Communication becomes almost impossible sometimes, if I don't make the adjustments.

I am one of those who sometimes uses "transgender" in an inclusive sense when advocating for civil rights.  As I use it in that context, this nuance does not erase the differences but only latches onto a single common characteristic. I also often enough will use the formulation "transsexual and transgender" when it's important to make a distinction.

The thing with legislative drafting, is that there has been a history.  The first trans-inclusive ordinance in 1975 in Minneapolis included transgender in the protected class of sexual orientation - which it isn't, but it works.  In the same way, legislative drafting that uses a variation on the "Rhode Island" language (so-called because this was the first statute using the particular formulation) creates a protected class based on "gender identity or expression" defined as "having or being perceived as having a gender identity, self image, appearance, behavior or expression whether or not that gender identity, self image, appearance, behavior or expression is different from that traditionally associated with the sex assigned to that person at birth" (version taken from GENDA, pending in New York).

The common characteristic is rooted in the "traditionally associated with the sex assigned to that person at birth" part - one fits into the broad definition for the purpose of being protected under a human rights law, if one's "gender identity, self image, appearance, behavior or expression" is not that which is expected of a person based on birth sex assignment.

The use of "transgender" to mean the umbrella covering everyone who has a characteristic that allows for the legal protection is legal shorthand - it is not intended to mean that everyone protected by the statue somehow becomes "the same" as everyone else.

Too often, this usage causes outrage unnecessarily. The day may come when there is better language for statutory drafting.  In 1975, the best they could do was to lump us all with sexual orientation.

When I drafted GENDA for New York in December 2002, a few days after the sexual-orientation-only SONDA bill was passed, the "Rhode Island" language was the best available formulation for the bill to do what needs to be done.  It still is.

It won't affect the underlying phenomena of causation that makes some people turn out transsexual, having a hypothalamus that develops in accordance with one of the basic developmental blueprints, and a mullerian or wolffian duct system, as the case may be, that is associated with "the other" developmental blueprint. (It doesn't have an opinion as to whether transition is a necessary corollary to HBS in all cases, either. It doesn't advocate that the "classic transsexual" WBT is "the same" as a part-time crossdresser or a gender-fluid trans-identified boi or grrl (and don't ask me about those gender-neutral pronouns, sie, zie, zhie, whatever).  All it would do is provide prople with appropriate protection against discrimination in some very basic circumstances.

I've been exposed to the idea that the inclusive use of the term "transgender" in such a circumstance amounts to a "redefinition without the consent of the redefined."  It still seems to me to be similar to the outrage Maggie Gallagher has over the "redefinition of marriage."



[ Parent ]
But, of course you do...or dont...????
Oh, yes, you know full well what is meant by classic transsexualism, two of the sites that you link to on your own blogroll (Ariablue, TS-Si and Riding the Second Wave) have made it absolutely clear to you what classic transsexualism is.  Others who would have explained it to you have been banned from your blog and labeled trolls for no other reason than not seeing the "world according to Suzan."  The truth is you don't like the term classic transsexualism because people use it instead of your term, Women Born Transsexual...just like you don't like GRS or GCS because your preference is sex change operation...just like you don't like the term cissexual because it not your word, normborn.  If its not your words, your wording, then its invalid...and you refuse to recognize it.  Oh, yes, you are fully aware of what classic transsexualism refers to.

As of late, you appear to be anti HBS, in your posts here equating it to bull sh**.  HBS was a valiant attempt to differentiate transsexualism as defined by the transgender, from the intense true transsexualism defined by Benjamin, and its implementation failed miserably due to the rants of certain fanatics...and you know that because not only do you link to the New Zealand HBS site, Joanne Proctor - Harry Benjamin Syndrome, but you have also posted no less than 10 guest opinions on TS-Si, one of the most popular HBS centric blogs on the net,  http://ts-si.org/component/ijo... including the infamous Goodbye to Transgender and All That, where you said you were "...serving divorce papers" on the entire transgender construct.  In spite of now claiming to be anti HBS, on the very blog we are commenting on, Pam's House Blend, you claimed you actually were HBS... http://www.pamshouseblend.com/... :

"I'm a woman who was born with transsexual Syndrome aka Harry Benjamin Syndrome.  An intersex condition for which I was treated with a sex change operation."

And now you try to present yourself as a kinder, gentler, more transcentric Suzan Cooke, working for the good of both the transsexual and transgender:

"I think people would rather call names and spout fictions while fighting each other than work for the common good...Those who work for the common good either the transsexual or transgender communities can all expect to get trashed for their efforts and those trying to end the fighting between the TG faction vs the TS faction get more than their share."  

I don't think you know what you support anymore.  

"On the other hand many of the "classic transsexual" come off as obsessive trolls who put down anyone not complying with their peculiar standards."  

That one redefines the pot calling the kettle black.

"...are a small group..."  

Not quite as small as you might think, but one you certainly will never were and never will be a part of.    


[ Parent ]
Why I Banned Certain Trolls
Why, Susan Taylor why on earth do you think I would want to be part of the group that you, Leigh Smith and Jennifer Suzanne Usher belong to?

As for my change of views...  I saw what a hateful insane bunch of bigots you really were.


[ Parent ]
We
are wise to Miss Cooke.


[ Parent ]
I Still Do Not Identify with Transgender
Not identifying with the bullies spewing bigotry and calling people names does not make one transgender.

Indeed I am in rather good company with people working to remove GID from the DSM, end DOMA, DADT, promote hate crimes laws and an inclusive ENDA.

I do not have to be part of a particular group to support thing that make the world better.

Only supporting things that directly benefit me is soo Republican and I realize counter to my over all ethics.

One positive aspect of self criticism is that it allows one to correct messed up behavior.  Like when I quit drugs some 21 years ago and then smoking and drinking.

I get to save my anger for those on the right wing who oppress people of color, women, the poor and other minorities including those in the LGBT/T communities.


[ Parent ]
And, we need to respect your right to self-identify.

I have reasons I identify as transgender that are mostly sociopolitical, as it appears to me that many of your personal identifications -- such as woman-born-transsexual -- seem to me to be for you.

But, how we identify seems kind of trivial, in the bigger picture. It's why I talk about finding commonalities -- Even though we don't use the same identifications to identify ourselves, we do have common perspectives of right wing folk (in my mind, mostly conservative "Christian" folk), and about GID reform.

Frankly, I would rather work with you on our common issues instead of fighting with you over how each of us identifies.

So, I guess that's my point to the folk in this thread. It seems to be getting personal in this thread -- over the people who hold viewpoints rather than the actual viewpoints that people hold -- my question to the classic transsexuals and HBS ascribing folk in the thread is regarding on what we agree: Where do you agree with people who identify as genderqueer or transgender, and how do we work together for these things we agree on?

I see GID reform as one area on which we likely all basically agree, and could set aside differences to work together for reform. Which is why I said:

The "should" I wish I could impose on our broader community is the one of embracing the diversity of people and experiences within all of our broader communities and subcommunities. Embracing our differences while searching for our commonalties -- those are "shoulds" I could live with.

Of course, I don't really want to impose it. I; however, just wish more would embrace that perspective. Y'all's thoughts?  

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
A few thoughts
We all want equal rights, we all want safety.
We all want our own spaces. This we can agree on.
I have to borrow a quote from another site that ties the ribbon on it all.

From Riding The Second Wave;
A site which I read often but comment on seldom.

If you are a woman, be one. If you come to women's space as anything other than a woman, you don't belong. If you seek women's space as a form of validation of your womanhood, you are not a woman and should examine why you need that validation for you thus came to take, not share.

That is where the line in the sand is drawn because I and my sisters demand our space.

If we can with those conditions then we can work on common issues.

LiZ


[ Parent ]
I like that quote
This one:

If you are a woman, be one. If you come to women's space as anything other than a woman, you don't belong. If you seek women's space as a form of validation of your womanhood, you are not a woman and should examine why you need that validation for you thus came to take, not share.

Of course, even with all that, there are those who choose to judge others by their imagination of the others' history and how that relates to "being a woman."



[ Parent ]
That is
how you get along int he world.

When you are one out of 33 in the world or one out of 3000 (in the case of TG / TS folk) that is how you make a successful life Many gay people look down their noses at the "straight acting" gays just like many TG and TS folk look down their noses at those who move on and blend into society. Take it from someone who is successful, privilege has nothing to do with it, it's good fashioned American hard work to get there. You can be ugly as a mud fence, 6' ,6" and weigh 245 (from the jimmy dean song Big John) and fit into society like a glove and have a successful life.
You have to have the desire to do it.

The argument can be made that all those laws are nothing more than a red flag to preemptively screen out TG and TS folk and to a lesser extent Gay and Lesbian folk.
Millions of us have done without those laws, is it really any wonder there is a backlash in the Ts community and over half of that community wants to distance itself from the rest. Is it any wonder why employers don't want the hassle of hiring anybody who is not straight, and non political.

it's no wonder to me, we are getting too bogged down with special classes.

LiZ


[ Parent ]
But this part bothers me

If you come to women's space as anything other than a woman, you don't belong.

REALLY bothers me. Viscerally. I take no issue with ANYONE coming into "woman's space"; how else does education and learning occur?

No. I reject this notion.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners

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[ Parent ]
I'd argue transgender is a kind of woman...

...in a multiple identity kind of way, much as there are African-American women, Latina women, women parents, disabled women, lesbian women, women veterans, etc.

Among my identities, I identify as a disabled veteran, transgender, transsexual, omnisexual, functionally asexual, etc. -- and I identify as a woman. In a world with many identities, I have a number of them. :)

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
Our LGBT Center's policy
The center's peer support policy allows anyone based on self-identification, to attend our women's discussion group.

One must be:

a. over the age of 18;

b. identify as a woman; and

c. identify as lesbian or bisexual;

One's actual physiological situation is not seen as relevant, and trans status isn't "don't ask, don't tell" either - no one has to out themselves, and there isn't a penalty if people know from other sources, or otherwise find out one's history.

There have been a relatively few situations where a part-time CD has looked at the rules, felt sufficiently "woman-identified" to attend the group, and has attended.  They will attend once and will not return, because once they've been there, they realize on their own that the group isn't like a tea party, or whatever it is they expected.  

We trust people to honestly self-identify, and it works.

So far, the only women of transsexual experience who are regular or occasional attendees are surgery-tracked, have had surgery, or haven't had surgery only because of medical issues.  AFAIK, there aren't any regular or repeat attendees at the women's group who isn't either WBF or a variety of WBT (extended to include the non-surgical in the case of medical issues).  I have friends who identify as TG and are not part-time CDs who would not think of attending the women's group, who feel just fine with the monthly trans group. Why? It's possibly because they identify as TG and not as TS, and the women's group is, for them, not a place they feel they fit - or perhaps even if they are oriented to women, they don't feel exactly lesbian (though I really can't speak for them - maybe it's more a matter of not feeling they fit in socially with the other group attendees).

All this is anecdotal.  I am aware that there was a point in time before I was involved with the local center, where a trans woman insisted on wanting to attend the women's rap group at a time when it was run by separatists - the individual (I later met her) was very early in transition and hadn't even started RLT, and wanted to attend the group without bothering to even try to fit in (i.e., in "boy mode.")  This story was confirmed to me by the individual years later, and she acknowledged that she had made a huge mistake at that time.

It took three years after I got involved with the center and had co-founded a monthly trans group, that the women's group became welcoming - and that was only because the separatists had left the center over another issue entirely. This left the lesbians who had gotten to know me the opportunity to change the rules.  Previously, it was a sort of DADT - and since I was known to have a trans history, I couldn't attend, but they weren't going to do a panty-check for anyone else they did not know.

Incidentally, the separatists started their own organization which runs a women's group at the same time as ours - which draws the WBFs who might be uncomfortable with trans women - thus giving them a place to gather, too.

In discussing "healing the wounds" I have been an advocate in favor of allowing for a separatist group to meet at the center in addition to the inclusive group - and I am a minority of one on the issue.  It's not that I approve of lesbian feminist separatism, but I approve of their right to meet without me.  It's my way of working through the "never say never" paradox - if we're going to be an inclusive center, shouldn't we have a place where separatists can feel safe?

(The counterargument I hear the most is that we don't open the center to advocates for reparative therapy or anti-LGBT groups.  Inclusion doesn't have to include tolerance of the intolerant, in the counter-arguers view.  My inner civil libertarian doesn't see it that way, though I would object to a separatist group if it was the only group.)



[ Parent ]
The
term woman's spaces is a generic term that covers many places and circumstances. A woman's space doesn't necessarily mean a physical place like a bathroom, changing room or locker room. There are woman's spaces I will not tolerate anyone but a born female like a situation where I may need to see a rape or domestic violence counselor. for me there is actually no way I would feel comfortable with anybody in those roles other than a borne female. A woman of ether trans history or of surgical history even if the surgery occurred at puberty would not carry the history that would make me feel comfortable.  Other woman's spaces like my doctor or ob / gyn or a mental health worker who was of trans or operative history would be just fine with me as long as my basic criteria were met.

This is beginning to range off the topic but you get the idea. Those other woman's spaces that always get talked about here are an endless debate that is beyond the scope of this thread. They seem to come up around here about once every month or 2 so we will have an opportunity to discuss them soon enough.    


[ Parent ]
*Elizabeth Taylor*
how interesting that someone so homophobic can take the name of a woman who is so not that...

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
An easy label
to stick on one, much like calling anybody who disagrees with Obama's policies a racist.

Both labels Homophobe and Racist now have nowhere near the force of power behind them because of their over use.  

As a matter of face calling someone a homophobe without proof is homo-baiting.

I shall from now on when I see your posts just consider the source.

Have a nice day Ma'am  


[ Parent ]
Should read
Matter of Fact
not matter of face


[ Parent ]
Was understood
however, it worked that way as well.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
It is important to realize
Everyone has their right to their identity and the standards they use to enforce that identity. I no longer consider myself T-anything because I made the leap over 3 decades ago. I have a set of standards I live by and I use to function in society with. To change those to fit the occasion would be wrong, it would be going against my belief system and therefore causing conflict within myself that is not allowable.

You and I have one thing in common;
We have to face ourselves in the mirror every morning when
we brush our teeth. We have to sleep with our life decisions each night in spite of who is in bed with us.
The one bed partner we cannot escape is our conscience.  

Whatever we do we must make sure we can live with it.  


[ Parent ]
Oh, agreed
And, having just popped back in here, lol, I want to state that Autumn is correct, it was indeed a personal attack on that poster, because she does not believe such.

I think I've gotten most of it out of my system now, so should be better. I apologize to the board in general.

Indeed, I have issues when anyone decided to speak to an entire class of people speak of "the right viewpoint".


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Aye
but I don't use a label like that one without being able to support it.

Then again, if you can't see it, yo probably have it yourself.

Also, please note that I was very specific in the format of racism noted. Don't make the mistake she did.

And neither term is overused, sweetie. But privilege can often make it seem that way...

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
And, More of the same...
I can't believe the moderators continue to let you post here.

[ Parent ]
More of the same...
More baiting, part of your ongoing campaign, contributing nothing but unsolicited insults.  I chose my mother's name, who in turn chose her grandmother's, which was Anna-Elizabeth.  You know nothing about me.

All you do is insult and bait...I can't believe the moderators continue to let you post here.


[ Parent ]
Well,
perhaps if you weren't so homophobic, it'd be more difficult...

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
And, More of the same...
I can't believe the moderators continue to let you post here.

[ Parent ]
WHAT????
You changed your views because of how you perceived me to be...when half of the websites on your blogroll share the same general perspective and I do, a couple of them way more radical in their views than I will ever be?  ROFL...now that makes a lot of sense.

With a wave of the hand you can conveniently dismiss your past and change your views diametrically if you like, you have an entire GLBT movement who welcomes you with open arms.  But some of us don't appreciate being appropriated by the GLBT...the intersex don't appreciate having their identity appropriated by the GLBT either.  Calling those who dislike that appropriation bigots, puts you squarely in the same transgender camp as those who have shouted us down for years, and of whom you say you have resisted.  Be proud as you now carry their standard; it seems to fit you more and more with each passing day.  


[ Parent ]
Ignorance or lies?
Just curious which one is responsible for your statement there...

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
Curious as well...
I'm curious as well.  I'm curious as to why you continue to be allowed on this blog considering a deaf, blind, mute on Jupiter sees that your one and only motive is attention and to cause trouble.

Yes, I booted you off of my blog for being a friggin troll having nothing whatsoever to say, only insulting everyone and everything there...now get over it.  All you enjoy doing is disrupting things.  

Why you are allowed to continue posting your numerous repetitive sarcastic comments and obvious baiting here is beyond me.  You'd think some action would be taken against you by the moderators.  


[ Parent ]
Ah, lies then.
Thanks for the clarification.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
And, More of the same...
I can't believe the moderators continue to let you post here.

[ Parent ]
Enough, please

These back and forth bickerings and calling each other out can best be handled elsewhere, please.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners

Click here for DADT photobook


[ Parent ]
No one is drafted into the LGBT community, it's strictly voluntary
Although being tossed out is a group venture

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
Well, given your particular flaws...
... its not only a small group, its a tiny one.

Because, my dear girl, most transsexuals today were born long after you transitioned, and don't have the homophobia, the sexism, the classism, and the institutional bigotry of your white's only, ever changing standard of what is a classic transsexual.

Which, I will note, is your personal illusion, with not only no bearing on reality, but little bearing beyond your own warped ignorance.

You already know the word I have for you.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
And, More of the same...
I can't believe the moderators continue to let you post here.

[ Parent ]
It seems like I have been following this general conversation . . .
. . . for over ten years, and it goes back to usenet ALT groups.  There are people out there who have very different definitions of terms from each other, different understandings of the underlying phenomena and different understandings of the ways in which the phenomena should be interpreted, and there are very sincerely and strongly held beliefs out there.

One of the more interesting developments within the past decade has been the emergence of Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS) as descriptive of the underpinnings of the phenomena as a medical condition.

I see the medical model represented by HBS as a huge advance over the medieval witch-doctor psychiatric Skinner-Box muddle that goes by names like "gender dysphoria" or "gender identity disorder."

Unfortunately, at least some of the proponents of HBS seem to use the medical model interpretation of the underlying phenomena to make distinctions that are not (or at least not yet) supported by the scientific evidence.



[ Parent ]
I've always assumed that "classic transsexual" meant that one...

...embraces Harry Benjamin's The Transsexual Phenomenon as gospel.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
I received a complaint about this commnent thread...

...regarding flaming. Here is the referenced definition for flaming that we use in the Pam's House Blend Terms And Conditions Of Service (TOS):

Flaming is a hostile and insulting interaction between Internet users. Flaming usually occurs in the social context of a discussion board, Internet Relay Chat (IRC), by e-mail or on Video-sharing websites. An Internet user typically generates a flame response to other posts or users posting on a site, and such a response is usually not constructive, does not clarify a discussion, and does not persuade others. Sometimes, flamers attempt to assert their authority, or establish a position of superiority over other users. Other times, a flamer is simply an individual who believes he or she carries the only valid opinion. This leads him or her to personally attack those who disagree. In some cases, flamers wish to upset and offend other members of the forum, in which case they can be called "trolls". Most often however, flames are angry or insulting messages transmitted by people who have strong feelings about a subject.

A good portion of the comments in this sub-thread of the diary's overall thread contain "you statements" in in responding to others' comments where blenders appear to this barista to be asserting their authority, or establish a position of superiority over other users, or seem to be behaving in a way that indicates a beleif that he or she carries the only valid opinion. And then, we definitely see people in this thread as personally attack those who disagree instead of directing their attack primarily at the ideas the people who hold contrary views.

Please, let's stick to discussing, debating, and attacking ideas, and not attacking the individuals here at The Blend who hold these ideas.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
Classic Transsexuals
Have rich corinthian leather and Bill Blass styling, I suppose

Or perhaps have the 50's look a la Jorgensen?

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid


[ Parent ]
There's labeling, and then there's . . .
Weltenschaung.

That's one of those nice German bashed-together words that translates as "world view."

One of the things I do is try to understand what makes me tick, and how and where I fit in.  That's led me to putting together a litle dog and pony show that relates to sex, gender, and sexual orientation.

Many people get hung up on the idea that it describes "little boxes" when it doesn't - the whole purpose is to ease people out of strict binary thinking and into understanding diversity, by adding "both" and "neither" to the commonly-expected "either" and "or" categories.

Some of them are there already - in sexual orientation, bisexual is "attracted to both" and asexual is "attracted to neither."  These match up well with "attracted to men" and "attracted to women" as starting points.

Doing the exercise with gender identity, sex assignment and gender expression helps understanding - and if one wants to count "boxes" just this simple attribute-expansion from the simple binary results in a 4x4 grid of characteristics with 64 possible outcomes.

Of course (as I point out in the lectures), the number of outcomes is infinite, since there are more than four characteristics, and either/or/both/neither doesn't begin to scratch the nuances between them.

Autumn, you touch on that when you notice that people "expect" bisexual to mean 50/50, and that anyone with a different intensity level of relative attractions can't "really" be bisexual.  That's just western binary thinking working underneath people's minds.

It's wonderful that binary thinking has led western civ. to digital computers, but it's the either/or black/white thinking that seems to oversimplify everything, and much of the time we don't notice it unless we really look carefully.

So, what do I do when I run into a phenomenon that doesn't fit my weltenschaung?  Most of the time I try to figure out how to adapt the world-view to accommodate the phenomenon, rather than assume that I have to fit the phenomenon into my world-view.

Sometimes that leads me to surprising conclusions.  One example: I perceive my gender as fixed.  Other people see their gender as fluid.

This was one of the harder things for me to "get."  Both phenomena are real, though - I have to give myself credence for my own self-perception, and I will give others credence for theirs.

How it fits?  It's a lot like sexual orientation.  Some people feel their hetero or homo orientation is "fixed" - others feel naturally bisexual in a "fixed" way.  Others with a bisexuality experience their bisexuality in a fluid way - feeling that their orientation changes.

Some who "come out" as gay in mid-life will self-perceive it as a change in their orientation.  Others will see it as a matter of "fluidity," while still others will see it as a matter of having a fixed orientation (as gay), but having spent much of their life suppressing their nature.

I see the same sort of phenomenon in transsexual and transgender narratives, particularly with those who come out or transition in mid-life.  Self-perceptions differ, and I believe that even if the underlying phenomenon is the same thing, or based on the same physiological or psychological characteristics being expressed, the self-perception means a lot.

While I see my own situation as being a matter of having a fixed gender identity that I spent many years suppressing, I have to acknowledge and understand that others will view their own transition as involving a change.  

The underlying phenomenon is seen by me as being natural - I was born this way.  I perceive the development of the wolffian duct system rather than the mullerian, in conjunction with the hypothalamus developing in a different direction, perhaps based on a genetic factor (recent studies indicate the possibility) as an underlying fact, though, that can lead to the different self-perceptions.

I place a preference on the brain development over the genital/reproductive organ development.  This leads me to see a "medical condition" (for those who transition).

It leads me to understand (though I strongly disagree with them) those who see it as a "mental disorder."  They start from the preference on genital/reproductive organ development as controlling.  Some of them add a negative feeling about those who wish to "ablate healthy organs" to the mix.

I also understand (I think) the reason why some don't transition by choice, or don't feel the need (or don't feel the need "as much." (Understanding doesn't change my need, but I'll leave that to the side.)  I can reason it out - if having a hypothalamus developing in one "sexed" direction and a wolffian or mullerian duct system developing the other way is natural, then there should be an acceptable societal niche for those who don't fit into the binary in this way.

(This doesn't stop me from screaming "but don't put all of us in that "third sex" category.)

Of course, this is a line of thinking that tends to take the underlying phenomena and treat them differently from the self-perceptions to an extent - but it explains how people with similar situations that are possibly linked by the underlying phenomena, to experience the phenomena in such different ways, and to create little boxes to differentiate sub-groups in such a way as to show that one's own sub-group is different enough so as to not be a sub-group at all.

Of course, add more understanding to the "underlying phenomena" situation, and I'll have to adjust the weltenschaung once again.

I am sorry of this rambles, but Autumn's column was kind of inspiring.


Something Toni Morrison said once
That she didn't mind having the label "black woman writer" afiixed to her but that she reserved the right to define exactly what that meant.

I feel the same way about "gay" (and no, not "same-gender loving"...I don't embrace that any more than I embrace the term African American, really). I am physically and emotionally attracted to men. Now anything else about my life (my love for football, I am always razzed about this by other gay men, for example, because it's supposed to be evidence of either me wanting to be around straight men or that I am in some sort of denial or self-hating stage or something).  


Kev I know many gay men who enjoy football
Although in my experience lesbians celebrate loving football more, in Eau Claire WI at the lesbian bar, they'd have free drinks for every Packer touchdown...it got rowdy there, and since I rarely drink, I drove home several womyn friends too drunk to drive.
A funny story about this gay fellow (he was pushing 60 yo when I knew him) in Minneapolis a HUGE University of MN fan and alumnist, he had a woman's U of M cheerleading outfit (and a horrid blonde page-boy wig)which he'd wear to EVERY game, how this old auntie didn't get beaten at those games just mystifies me, maybe he was so clownish, and non threatening he was ignored by bashers.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
nobody can define what it means to be you, but this can cause problems
As I get older, I'm becoming more accepting of the reality that we are all individuals who have our own beliefs and way of doing things.  

Where it gets complicated, for me, is figuring out how to motivate and organize communities when people don't believe in a "standard" idea of what we're supposed to think, aspire towards, or behave.  I think the LGBT community has so much difficulty in getting things accomplished because of all this diversity.


Be better, not bitter!


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