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Tel Aviv carnage: gunman kills 3, injures 11 in premeditated attack at LGBT teen community meeting

by: Pam Spaulding

Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 20:13:53 PM EDT


UPDATE (Lurleen): The Moderate Voice introduces us to two of the three people killed. "26-year-old Nir Katz, youth counselor, IDF veteran, college student" and "16-year-old Liz Trobishi, a self-described straight ally":
"Although I am not a part of the Igy community I really love being with them," the 16-year-old wrote on the youth organization's online forum a few months ago.


Avi Cohen at Ynetnews reports on this horror, though the latest update is that a third victim has died:

The incident took place at a time during which teenagers belonging to the GLBT community were holding a meeting. At around 10:40 pm shots were heard at the meeting place in central Tel Aviv. A man dressed in black was spotted by eyewitnesses fleeing the scene, and he was later spotted again on a nearby street.

The police's Tel Aviv district commander, Major-General Shahar Ayalon, said the incident had not been preceded by threats to members of the community.

"For 15 years this place has served as a club belonging to the union for private rights. Today a teen meeting was taking place," he said. "At some point someone walked in and began firing left and right. The shooter escaped and we are searching for the suspect. We have no specific description of the suspect or the circumstances."

In a breaking update, Tel Aviv police district commander, Major-General Shahar Ayalonhas ordered all LGBT clubs in Tel Aviv to close following the shooting incident.

From the AP:

Openly gay Knesset lawmaker Nitzan Horowitz said it was "without a doubt the biggest ever attack on the Israeli gay community, we are all in shock."

Witnesses told Israeli media that the gunman was dressed all in black, and described the scene as a "bloodbath."

And a finger is being pointed at religious bigotry. (AFP):

"It is not surprising that such a crime can be committed given the incitement of hatred against the homosexual community," the president of Tel Aviv's gay and lesbian community, Mai Pelem, told reporters.

Pelem was referring to verbal attacks against gays from the religious community.

In the past, swastikas had been painted at the entrance to the centre in an attempt to stigmatise homosexuals.

Pam Spaulding :: Tel Aviv carnage: gunman kills 3, injures 11 in premeditated attack at LGBT teen community meeting
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So sad
I like to think of myself as fairly tough/cynical about the straight world and its treatment of us.  Especially the religious types.  But when I saw this headline I had to close my eyes for a few seconds, bury my face in my hands and regain my composure.  

I am so sad for the victims of this horrible massacre, and I wish so deeply that there was something I could do.  But all any of us can do is keep fighting.

Enough.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary


I know, Q
Read this tip hours ago and just- stopped. Teens.

Some days, there are no words but gut punches.


Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners

Click here for DADT photobook


[ Parent ]
rrrrrr
I am beyond pissed. Targeting children for christ's goddamned (lack of capitalization intentional) effin sake.

And to think that earlier today I was thinking about how I'm a bit quick to judge religious types.  I tend to have a fear every time I see people living according to rules that have about as much basis in reality as my favorite effing comic books. To hell with that. There's no reason behind an attack like this. I'm starting to think it doesn't deserve an ounce of reason in developing a response to it.

And talking heads and men of power and religion keep putting bull's eye on the backs of children...



Electricity's for light bulbs!


[ Parent ]
Israel gay mecca?
Well, this tragedy calls to question Michael Lucas's portrayal of Israel as a gay mecca, because of his one porn film there. How about reality Michael?

Michael Lucas is a friend
And stands for democracy in the free world.  Maybe I should go to Israel now, as reported in the major Israeli papers.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articl...

Shit, who said freedom was just another word for nothing left to lose.  At 75 at the end of your life you believe it.

I understand Lucas.  He used what he had to get power, namely a big dick.  But he is so much more than that.  

Jewish people are the most intelligent people on earth, and they support the finer things in life, like art and higher thought.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.


bleah \nt


Electricity's for light bulbs!

[ Parent ]
Except Joe Lieberman
I would not include McCain/Palin and DOMA backing Joe Lieberman in the that group of "the most intelligent people on earth"

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

[ Parent ]
Michael Lucas' history of antagonizing the ultra-Orthodox
Lucas is also not afraid to turn fire on his own side, excoriating Republicans as "homophobic and anti-Semitic," and ultra-Orthodox Israelis as "anal warts on the body of Israeli society." The latter remark comes from a July 2007 New York Blade column on what he calls "the Hassidic scourge," of which he warns that "if somebody doesn't stop the vermin from breeding full-time, there's no telling what could happen in the future."

But it's a toss-up whether the majority of his contempt is reserved for peacenik liberals, particularly gay liberals, who don't recognize the threat of Islamic extremism for what it is, or Islam itself. When gay artist Charles Merrill burned a $60,000 edition of the Koran that had once belonged to the King of Jordan, Lucas opined:

The Koran is today's "Mein Kampf." By the way, "Kampf" and "jihad" are, respectively, the German and Arabic words for "struggle." If enough Germans had burned Hitler's book before the Nazis overpowered Germany, perhaps the Germans wouldn't have wound up having to rebuild their entire country over the ashes of countless millions of dead. So I salute Charles Merrill for his artistic and social bravery in burning a Koran.

http://www.jewcy.com/tags/sex_...

And, you burned a Koran?

How exactly does this kind of thing help the young people in Tel Aviv? How does this bring about peace and understanding?

When we have a pornographer go to Israel and pretend to be a social activist, we can atnticipate problems.

The more I look into it, the more it seems that my instincts were correct.

Lucas, who is Jewish, is most famous in the mainstream media for his statement in 2006 that he was to travel to Israel to "entertain gay Israeli troops." He intended to perform live shows in Tel Aviv and Haifa offering free entry, excuse the pun, to Israeli soldiers. He also planned to film the trip, taken between 29th August and 4th September 2006, as a documentary and to film a gay porn film while he was there. The trip was intended to highlight the ongoing war in the region to "expose the reality that the people of Israel face right now, especially that of gay Israelis who are targeted by the hate of Hezbollah!" The outcome of this trip is unknown to me at this time, though the statement of his intention to travel there did receive a large amount of negative press.

http://hamsters-wheel.blogspot...

Lucas has a long history of thumbing his nose at the Israeli conservatives. The killings in Tel Aviv come the day after his PR blitz for his Israeli porno movie.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
The very existence of this group...
...was thumbing their nose at the Israeli conservatives.  The liberal acceptance of the GLBT community was thumbing their noses at the Israeli conservatives.  The fact that pride parades took place in Tel Aviv was thumbing their nose at the Israeli conservatives.

I'm amazed at the level of power you've given Michael Lucas. He must have really wronged you bad at one point.  You're whole line of logic is breathtaking and amazing.


[ Parent ]
Do your own research
He was all over the news right before this happened. While in Tel Aviv he was entertaining at gay night clubs and was reported to be having live sex on stage.

Live Sex On Stage

Michael Lucas is an Russian, who became an American citizen. The galling part is this 'Piece of Garbage' is international headlines, while 2630 US kids died in Iraq are page three, or Lebanese 6 yr olds, maimed by Israeli cluster bombs, are page thirty.

I'm beginning to suspect that you have a vested interest in Michael Lucas. Perhaps you are another friend or business partner. I don't know your angle. But, I think you protest too much.



When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
Unless you are working for Michael Lucas...
Fritz, with all of your posts talking about him, the links to his articles, covers of his porn films and mentions of what sexual activities he depicts in those film, I'm thinking it's you who have the vested interest in Lucas.

Are you one of his friends or business partners?

Careful. If you protest that you aren't, it's only going to confirm that you are to everyone here assembled.


[ Parent ]
Have you heard of Google, Jodyw1?
Exactly how hard is it to find out about someone who lives for publicity?

[ Parent ]
I welcome a Fatwa
Bring it on.  The Bible and Koran (Qur'an) are terrorist manuals.  Until the hateful stonings of gay men and a promise of virgins in paradise for killing a non believer are edited out of the "holy books", we can't move forward in our Democracy.  Islam and Christianity have both proven themselves to be a failure and not be a "peaceful religions". I am not against Islamic people or Christians, just passages in holy books that they study and motivate extremists to act against us LGBT's.  

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

[ Parent ]
You welcome a Fatwa?
Well, isn't that thoughtful of you?

What about others who may be harmed due to your thoughless and reckless disregard for their safety?

That's the problem with zealots and book burners. They don't care who else gets caught in the fallout.

The religious zealots see a gay man burning their holy book and then take it out on the local gay kids. Thanks for helping to make the world a more violent, less tolerant place to live.

Zealots, book burners and pornographers do not make the world a better place. They only leave it more scarred and damaged. They have a place alongside the greedy, the corrupt, and the merciless. Some expolit for power. Others exploit for principle. The damage to the innocent is the same.

Until the hateful stonings of gay men and a promise of virgins in paradise for killing a non believer are edited out of the "holy books", we can't move forward in our Democracy.

Those books are meaningless to me. I have moved forward along with millions of others. By burning them and enraging the zealots, you only make it more likely that religion will die a violent death rather than fade away.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
Jeeze, Fritz, come on, already.
Why are you picking fights with everybody in this thread?

[ Parent ]
Mein Kampf
is banned in Israel.  For a reason.  "Holy Books" are the "word of God" for the majority of religious zealots.  We wouldn't have had 9/11 without "God's word".  My actions were meant to wake up the moderates to be critical of extremists.
A wake up call.  

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

[ Parent ]
Yes, because by burning a book,
you can move forward in your democracy.

Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen


[ Parent ]
You're aiming at the wrong target.
You're blaming the haters' excuse, not the haters themselves. If the Koran and Bible had never been written, they'd simply use different books as reasons for their actions. The problem is never the thing itself, it is the purpose to which it is put. Diamorphine is a cruelly addictive and destructive drug that wrecks lives, families and even whole communities, but it is also a powerful painkiller, one which can ease pain when no other painkillers are powerful enough (and yes, I speak from experience). Similarly both the Koran and Bible can be used for great good or great evil - the choice is purely up to the person using them. By putting the blame for violent acts on those books you excuse, either partially or wholly, the guilt of those responsible for those acts.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.


[ Parent ]
I could use a break on fatwa's
Between the lot of us who work together under my employers, we've got Evangelicals who would shoot some of us, Serbian Orthodox who would shoot most of us, and African Catholics who would "disappear'us and probably get sanctuaty in the Vatican afterwards.

Living a life that has a certain possibility of ending violently if not careful goes with our jobs, it isn't something for everyone.......

Nor should it be.

I am tired of LGBT casualties, wearier that it is still politically objectionable to call our deaths the result of a broad based conspiracy of hate whose perpetrators include right wing religious types of all stripes who can and do anticipate the sanguinous outcomes of their sermons and speeches.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid


[ Parent ]
bloggers precede MSM reports
I hadn't seen any mention of this event on CNN fully a half hour from the time the blogs began reporting the story.

"You are the rest of the world."

I knew this would happen...
This is what happens when a sleezy pornographer goes to Tel Aviv and makes a xxx gay porno.

This isn't a coincidence.

Great Exxxpectations
Israeli studs make a new kind of porno

This week, Michael Lucas is making what he calls "a bold move to promote Israeli culture and tourism." His website extols the virtues of a country rich with natural wonders, intriguing museums, liberal politics, and friendly locals. More than a biblical theme park, Lucas's Israel is a tourist destination, a place where lovely beaches beckon and muscle-bound men have sex with each other.

Lucas-a porn actor and director, and founder of the New York-based gay porn production company Lucas Entertainment-sees his new film Men of Israel as a tool, if you will, to promote tourism, at least among gay men. His website-MenOfIsraelXXX.com-features still photos of the actors and excerpted video clips, as well as text explaining the performers' biographies and Lucas's Zionist motivations for making the film.

Journalists from The Atlantic to Out Magazine to Yediot Aharonot have taken notice, deeming the project a landmark because it is the first gay adult film to feature an "all-Israeli" cast. Fair enough. But they've missed the larger story: Men of Israel is a landmark because it is the first gay porn film to feature an all-Jewish cast.



When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


Gay and lesbian children
Who live in a country where religious zealots hate them.

This is a country where violent protests have occurred because an actress kissed an actor too close to a religious shrine.

This is a country where gays are blamed for earthquakes and disease.

This is a country where protests occur because of a TV talent contest.

Time will tell if I am off base. I have been ridiculed here on PHB for views in the past for things that everyone agrees on now -- conveniently forgetting how forcefully they argued against me.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
WE live in a country where
Religious zealots hate us.

Gays get blamed for hurricanes and disease.

Protests occur because we are asking for rights that that we would already have if we lived in Israel.

And a crazy gunman opened fired in a church during a children's performance just last year; the father of a trans teenager gave his life to save others, or the death toll would have been higher.


susanferman.wordpress.com


[ Parent ]
and we live where our teens also get murdered
just one at time, so far, rather than in groups. That is likely to change soon, with 'TheCall' now moving focus from gynecologists to LGBT's. They are the people directly behing the "Army of God' terror hit snipers and bombers....

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
Bull
The Israeli Army accepts gays to serve in the military.  No don't ask don't tell as in USA crazy society.  Israel did not have the Puritan experience.  Live and let live has always been their motto.  Jews recognize sexual lust for what it is, being human.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

"Jews recognize sexual lust for what it is, being human"
There is more than one kind of Jew.

The country has a very large Orthodox population. They believe that the Torah is against all homosexual acts -- not necessarily homosexuals themselves.

Many progressive Jews accept homosexuality.

But, your contention that there isn't a "Puritan experience" in Israel is absurd. Many segments of the culture are just as fucked up as that of the U.S.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
They *do* have their Puritans!
They're called the haredi, or "Ultra-Orthodox", and they've shoved through a law (IIRC) which gives their leaders the sole right to declare whether or not a Jewish couple married overseas is legal in Israel! They are also very misogynistic, and nearly Luddite in their use of technology.

When Dana International (an Israeli MtF transsexual singer) entered and won the Eurovision Song Contest in 1988, haredi had a hissy fit, claiming Dana was an embarrassment to the country.

Then when the next year's show moved to Israel as tradition dictated, haredi fought to have the broadcast moved, because they couldn't bear a drag artist perform representing their country. They picketed in front of the arena where the show was being held.

So Charles, you need to read up on the effect of the Ultra-Orthodox on Israeli society...

Listen to "TransTalk" every Monday from 4-5pm ET on http://www.falconradio.org beginning January 11th!


[ Parent ]
The Haredim are not the only problem
Remember they have a coalition government now. Yisrael Beitenu hates us as much as the Haredi do. Ironically, they hate Haredim (I have no idea how the hell the two groups are working together in the coalition). The good news is that Yisrael Beitenu's right-wing nutjob leader is about to be indicted on several serious charges.

Also the Shas "rabbi" (an honorific he doesn't deserve) who made the raciest remarks about President Obama last week is an Orthodox Sephardic Jew, not Haredi.

I just wanted to point out that the Orthodox communities that have been stirring up racism and are not all Haredim; it has been mainly the Haredim that have been attacking us (mainly verbally), but with the bigots in the ruling coalition in charge, bigots of all stripes are getting stirred up. (Personally, I can't stand Haredim, but I do want to be fair.) Israel actually does not have a majority population of fundies, they just have a higher percentage of them than we do here, and the fundies have a disproportionate degree of power.

susanferman.wordpress.com


[ Parent ]
BIG TYPO
My second paragraph was supposed to read "Also the Shas "rabbi" (an honorific he doesn't deserve) who made the raciest remarks about President Obama last week is an Orthodox Sephardic Jew, not Hasidic).

Most Americans picture Hasidim when they picture ultra-Orthodox.

susanferman.wordpress.com


[ Parent ]
exactly
When I think of the Middle East, "live and let live" is the first thing that comes to mind.

Electricity's for light bulbs!

[ Parent ]
Israel is one of the most hateful places to be LGBT
Christians, Muslims, and Jews attempt to F*CKING OUT DO EACH OTHER which hates us MORE.

This story gut punched me too, prayers for the victims friends and families.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
As much as Orthodox Jews preach vile things about gays
I would be shocked if this killer turned out to be Jewish,(and I don't shock easily.)
Of the Jews I've known closely, none would be capable of hurting or killing a kid, (anyone's kid.) I realise Iraeli commandos can be more ruthless than many armies in war, and kill collateral civilians including children, but this wasn't a war situation, it's cold blooded mass murder.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
Israeli...typo


"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
The same goes for all the Jewish people I know
But commenters at Israeli and Jewish sites are already assuming that the killer was an Orthodox extremist. Which in turn is stirring up anti-Haredi sentiments...I have no great love of extremist Haredim myself, but there is nothing whatsoever to tie them to this horrible crime, yet people are already jumping to conclusions.

susanferman.wordpress.com

[ Parent ]
The NY Times reports
The entrance to the center was previously vandalized with swastikas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08...

I asked Susan_F on her diary what that may indicate.

Maybe you're right and this wasn't a Jew who killed these kids. I mean, swastikas? What's going on there?

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
Russian immigrants are going on.


[ Parent ]
Chris, I suspect you are right
They make up the bulk of Yisrael Beiteinu.

That faction was actually the first thing that jumped to my mind, not Hasidim or other Haredi.

susanferman.wordpress.com


[ Parent ]
Oh please.
I'm not anti-Israel and I respect the fact that it is one of the few places in the Middle-East where it's possible to be gay in both civil and military society. although the universal draft does make the distiction pretty much irrelevent for all Israelis except the Hasidim who actually use their religious position as an excuse to dodge the draft.

But the draft has another effect as well: it does brutalise the population. It is impossible to live under military conditions, surrounded by enemies, indoctrinated with nationalist zeal and armed for several (very formative)years of your life, and not become hardened and brutalised by the experience.

I've spent most of the last fifteen years travelling and have met countless other travellers of every description, age, religion and nationality and there are no young people as desperate to get out of their heads as Israelis. After five years patrolling Gaza and the West Bank, armed to the teeth, demolishing houses and being attacked by angry civilians, they are deranged and have gigantic chips on their shoulders: they pretty much assume that everyone hates them all the time; it's amazingly difficult to make friends with them, they remain in tightly-bound cliques, are intensely hedonistic and careless of themselves and (I assert this only reluctantly) are utterly contemptuous of the cutural mores of other countries and cultures.

I would say that 95% of the Israeli kids I've met act in the most abrasive and fashion towards people in Brazil, India, South-East Asia and Central America when they are visiting. They have the most horrific reputations as guests. Even Hindus are wary of them, and, as you may know, Hindus have no particular love of Palestine or any Arab community.

The last group I met were stoned literally all day on an Indian reservation in Panama; the were doing bongs while the bemused and concerned Indian lady was serving breakfast at 9 in the morning; by 9 at night, it ws like one of those awful 'Girls Gone Wild' videos from Mardi Gras. It reeked of colonial arrogance; they only other people I've seen misbehaving like that are the British.

So what's my point? Well, my point is that the military experience is not making Israel psychologically stronger; on the contrary, their young people are the most crazed, insecure, arrogant, drug-fuelled and aggressive that I've ever met. If the Palestinians disappeared tomorrow, the school shootings would start the day after that.

I wouldn't dare make these generalisations if I hadn't ammassed enough experience as I could. I do think it's indicative of a wider trend and I have no wish to slander an entire national group.  


[ Parent ]
LOL they sound more like Americans than anything!


Always thinking about it...

[ Parent ]
Ok, now we're blaming Michael Lucas
for this?

Of course the gunman is to blame
But, this is what happens in a country filled with religious zealots when someone like Lucas rubs their nose in his pornography business.

Just read his press release. He deliberately antagonized the religious fundamentalists.

He claims to want to turn Israel into a "gay mecca" and do more porn film there.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
So...I guess then...
...that in the news coverage when the spokespeople of the GLBT community are calling Tel Aviv "a gay friendly" and also touting how accepting and liberal the area is, they are also antagonizing the fundies.

God, if you only knew how your internalized hate was making my blood boil right now.  3 kids are dead...14 wounded...3 in critical condition and you're gonna go on some puritan anti-porn rant.

But you're correct...this all started when Michael Lucas entered the scene.


[ Parent ]
I reported you for TOS violation
1) You are an anonymous commenter
2) You don't have an e-mail address posted with your account
3) You are harassing me personally

I don't have to tolerate someone saying that I am on a "puritan anti-porn rant" and telling me that I don't have the right to comment on this blog.

If you can't play by the rules and treat people here with respect, you will get reported for TOS violations. That's just the way it has to work around here from now on.

I believe that Michael Lucas is a sleezy pornographer. He makes barebacking films. He pays poor kids in Eastern Europe to have unsafe sex. He exploits young gay kids and exposes them to HIV/AIDS.

Now, he's gone into a community where there is already tension between the religious orthodoxy and the LGBT community and flaunted his exploitative porn business.

I had concerns about this kind of thing when I first heard about Lucas' PR campaign.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
What does this have to do with the price of tea?
I believe that Michael Lucas is a sleezy pornographer. He makes barebacking films. He pays poor kids in Eastern Europe to have unsafe sex. He exploits young gay kids and exposes them to HIV/AIDS.

Whomever shot up this center and killed these kids are responsible, period.


[ Parent ]
if or until the murderer is found, bringing up this porn movie, seems going way out on a limb


"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
Fritz, I can think of a country filled with religious zealots
Just because there is gay porn filmed there doesn't mean that it should become open season on gay children.

Think about the response from the "South Carolina is so gay" advertising campaign.  Should we have expected as a reasonable response to have bigoted buttwipes opening fire at PFLAG meetings in Charleston?

There's never an excuse for attacking people.  Call the bigotry what it is.  And above all, never fall for the "blame the victim" mentality.

# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #


[ Parent ]
Huh?
Just because there is gay porn filmed there doesn't mean that it should become open season on gay children.

Is that what you think I wrote? If so, read it again.

I wrote that I was afraid that something like this would happen when I heard about Lucas' porn movie in Israel.

The story was all over the place yesterday. I saw it on CNN. When I saw the report, my first thought was "uh, oh, this could be bad."

So, I'm just saying that my fears may have been realized.

I hope that's not the case. But, there are often consequences when someone stirs up trouble like Lucas did. And, more often than not, innocent people suffer.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
Looking at the porn image you supplied
ALL are well into their adulthood, none even mimic a younger man. So why would TEENS be the object of hate for such a gay movie? It makes no sense to me, and a teen meeting would likely have teen lesbians, which would make even less sense for some anti-porn deranged killer's rage.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
You are trying to apply logic...
...where there is none.  It's obvious that the gunman saw the report about Michael Lucas' porn push...as fate would have it the gunman knew the location of an out of the way gay youth group...fate also timed it that the group was meeting and gunman was so outraged by Michael Lucas these kids had to pay.

Never mind that Shas has been openly hostile to the gay community...saying we cause earthquakes, demanding that gay people can't adopt, threatening gay pride functions.

No...that stuff means nothing.  It's Michael Lucas and his porn.


[ Parent ]
That's not really the point
As I wrote earlier, who knows what the situation is.

It could be a jealous lover, a religious whacko, a robbery gone wrong...

But, if it is a religious whacko, a meeting of young kids would be an easy target. They would be convenient victims. They have a regular meeting.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
Just the German apologists
With Nazi relatives.  Not trying to flame my friend Pam's blog, that I dearly love.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

[ Parent ]
Really? It's Michael Lucas' fault??
Not religious extremists.  Not anti-gay rhetoric.  Not taught hate.  It's Michael Lucas.

Some of you need to get a fucking grip.


You're not looking at it correctly
Let's say that I'm a pornographer.

I go to a town in Utah and make one of the filthiest gay porn movies ever made, with watersports, fisting, bareback sex, the works.

I claim that the movie is the first "all Mormon" gay porn.

I issue press releases saying that Utah is the next gay porn capital of the U.S.

Then, a Mormon goes into an LGBT youth group meeting in that same town and shoots everybody.

Don't you think I should be blamed for making those kids a target?

Shouldn't Michael Lucas be taken to task for stirring up trouble for these local kids who have nothing to do with his exploitative porn business?

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
Not at all.
Then let's blame Michael Lucas for stirring up all the anti-gay hate in New York City and Prague and in Paris, just some of the other locations where he has done his films.

Think what you will about the porn business, Fritz, but that's just wrong.  


[ Parent ]
If you blame Michael Lucas...
...then you must blame any person in the area who is out of the closet.  Any person who pushed the issue of wanting a pride parade. Those issues...the issues that are in the news every day are more visible to that nation and it's fundies than Michael Lucas doing porn.

Fritz...grind your ax elsewhere.  No need to use these deaths to make your weak point.


[ Parent ]
Might as well blame the Palestinian gays
that run into the Tel Aviv underworld to escape their persecution in the territories and from recruitment by Mossad. Yeah, the religious fundamenatlists were trying to reduce Palestinian influence in the gay community of Tel Aviv.  

[ Parent ]
"Fritz...grind your ax elsewhere"
This isn't your blog.

Don't you dare tell me what I can write here and what I can't.

I have every right to my opinion. You have NO RIGHT to tell me that I can't share it here.

Who in the fuck do you think you are? You aren't Pam Spaulding that's for damn sure.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
Fritz...you are totally correct.
you have every right to use the death of these innocent kids to further your own craziness.

Carry on...


[ Parent ]
No, I don't.
You don't have to like Lucas.  You don't have to defend him or his actions.  But it is also completely unreasonable to blame him.  

Or what is the excuse for the attack on the gay bar in Fort Worth?  Was Lucas there, too?  

# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #


[ Parent ]
Well, who knows?
The killer could be a jealous lover of one of the victims for all we know.

I think any reasonable person would assume that I am speculating.

Right?

Or what is the excuse for the attack on the gay bar in Fort Worth?  Was Lucas there, too?

Well, if CNN and the other news networks did news stories about a kinky porn movie being made in Fort Worth and someone shot a bunch of gay and lesbain people the next day, I think there would be some questions about that.

That's what happened here. I learned about this Lucas porn on CNN. They made a big deal about it. It was international news.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
The situation you describe
reeks to me of the gay panic defense. Someone's delicate sensibilities were offended, so the blame is placed on the person who offended those sensibilities as opposed to the person who picked up a gun and shot someone.

I am the lizard queen!

[ Parent ]
I don't think so
Michael Lucas put on a major PR campaign that was reported on CNN and other major news outlets.

That doesn't excuse the person who did the killing -- if it turns out to be connected in anyway.

But, nobody in the media did any research into who Michael Lucas is and what kinds of movies he makes.

He is an exploiter. He pays poor kids next to nothing to risk their lives while he gets rich. He claims to have some kind of Zionist mission to make Israel a gay tourist draw. Those are fighting words for the religious orthodoxy there.

If some outsider came into my community and drew attention to me and made people see me as a threat, I would not be happy with that person.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
If the media didn't do the research
then it's more than possible that the killer didn't either. Could a homophobe really be expected to know so much about a gay porn producer? Granted there is Porno Pete, but everything suggests he's in a very small minority. If the poster you provided is standard for this thing's promotion, then there's little reason to think the killer knew what Lucas is really like.

I don't like Lucas either. He's an annoying prima dona who needs to be the center of attention, in addition to his movie directions.

Just like the gay panic defense, this is shifting blame away from the person who actually committed the crime. Even if the point is to show additional aspects of the killer's motive, it's extremely difficult to keep it from descending into an argument of "if x hadn't done that, y wouldn't have done this," which causes people to forget who's ultimately responsible. Until something tangible is found about why this happened, I think that's a path we'd all best avoid.

I am the lizard queen!


[ Parent ]
Some points,
If it's true that Lucas's porn productions make gay youth do unsafe sexual things for him, then Lucas is definitely guilty for that.

But I'm struggling a bit with the extention of Lucas's blame to these hate crimes. Now if more evidence comes in where Lucas is more directly involved, I will listen.

I'm trying to think, to challenge my brain about the culpability of indirect causation, because that matters to in the social justice view. But it's a hard sell. Even if Fritz was intentionally trying to piss off the fundies with his films, aren't the fundies still the only culprits? Certainly to be pissed off is not to kill, as most of our fundies stick with verbal hate.

On the other hand, one can also think that because it is well known that these fundies in this society are violent, that the issueing the of the film was reckless, thoughtless act of endangerment. Putting kerosene on a fire, even if it was by drunken accident.

But...how can we stand on something like this if we insist that gay media expression - including gay sexual media expression - is a human right of a society? The fact that Lucas may put his young actors in risky sexual situations has nothing to do with the supposed "incitement" of the fundies. They'd be just as pissed if the actors were verified to be of-age, using condoms, etc.

Bare in mind straight porn also exists (and mainstream imagery, advertising, television is porn-lite) and it's never been accused of causing people to shoot down heterosexual teens.


[ Parent ]
let's blame
religious-based bigotry

That is the real cause of this.

[I hate this had to happen because this now makes me dislike religious people even more now. Ugh.]


[ Parent ]
Before we blame anything or anybody,
prudence suggests finding out the who, what and why of this attack.

"We are only at the first stage of the investigation, we continue our search and we are not sure of the motive of this attack since the centre has not received any threats recently," [Tel Aviv police chief] Ayalon said.


[ Parent ]
You honestly can't be equating lawful behavior with causing unlawful behavior.
Whether you personally may be put-of by such things, generally speaking, filming erotica is perfectly legal. I'd go on to argue it's perfectly natural too, as some of the oldest art we have around depicts people having sex.

No one has the right, in any society, to pick up a gun and kill people because they didn't like the fact that someone else, somewhere else, with some other group of people did  something they didn't like.

You are making one of the most bonehead of equivalencies.  


[ Parent ]
Obviously, I am not
You're missing the point.

It does not matter what you or I think about porn.

However, it does matter what the ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel thinks about it.

Lucas used Israel as a PR vehicle for his porn business, with no regard for possible consequences faced by the LGBT people who live there.

How do you gather that I am arguing that picking up a gun and killing people is in anyway justified?

You are making one of the most bonehead of equivalencies.

I am not making an "equivalency" -- and thanks for the personal insult. That's very classy of you.

I am arguing that there is a cause and effect.

When a person goes into a community and stirs up trouble for the locals, he or she should be held accountable.

Michael Lucas is not a freedom-fighter. He is a sleezy pornographer who rubbed porn into the faces of the religious orthodoxy in Israel.

He did this as a PR stunt and several people may have died as a result.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
No, I'm not missing the point.
First, I didn't personally insult you; I noted your argument was boneheaded. Your response is even moreso.  

We have no idea why this man killed.  Those facts haven't come to light.

You've stated ("this is what happens....") that the gunman killed because Lucas filmed a porn film. There's as much evidence for that as there is that he killed because he was constipated: i.e. none.

You aren't making an argument -- you are pontificating. Vainly. And then getting upset when people note this.

The solution is to make a better argument, not wail like a brat when people won't play your game.


[ Parent ]
"wail like a brat"
That is also a personal insult.

You are behaving badly.

This is what drives people away from this and other blogs.

Reasonable people don't like being treated like this. It is socially unacceptable.

Writing that I'm a "brat" and "playing a game" is personal. This is the kind of behavior that would never be tolerated face-to-face. People would simply walk away from you and never speak to you again.

Perhaps this is what we all have to expect on blogs like this. But, the discourse will be stifled. The bullies and name caller will always win. And, no one worth knowing will be left.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
Do you have an argument?
I've lost count of the number of times in this thread that you've posted that you feel personally insulted, victimized and bullied.

Might I suggest that, given your sensibilities, posting on discussion forums in general and here in particular, might not be the best use of your time, as it seems to cause you a great deal of distress and psychological trauma?


[ Parent ]
I highly doubt that Michael Lucas caused this
maybe people are angry at your presumptions that he directly caused the killing of 3(or more, since a couple are in critical condition) and injured over a dozen. Of course he didn't kill the kids. I get that. However, it doesn't appear that his promotions of Israel as a gay tourist destination caused a rabbi to go out on a shooting rampage. It's obvious that it's some ordinary person who's pissed off at gay people. Hell, this could've even been BEFORE Michael Lucas put out his promotion as you call it. It's just really stupid to blame a porn film director for societal problems that are caused by RELIGION itself. I think you put the target on somebody that you dislike because you perhaps detest bareback films. Of course it's risky behavior but people don't care. that's the pure honesty of it. People will always have bareback sex and nobody can tell them not to without having a fascist face on themselves. Somebody call the puritan police. Either way, I think this takes away from the victims to suggest that their deaths were the sole fault indirectly from some porn film director.  

"It's hard to free fools from the chains they revere." ~ François Marie Arouet.

[ Parent ]
Israel has its share of homophobic lunatics
I don't know how to embed a picture, but politician Shlomo Benirizi blamed earthquakes on gay sex.

Educate me.

What's with the LGBT club closing?
Hopefully it will be short-lived.  I understand taking measures to protect people, particularly if there's a gunman still at large.  However, I'm going to hope and assume that the order will be lifted shortly.  LGBT Israelis need support more than ever right now.  They also have the right to stand together and show that they will not hide as a result of this violence.  I can imagine how LGBT people in Tel Aviv may not want to be out in the clubs, but should there be a contingent that wants to be, I don't want to see the police stand in their way.  As I said, lets hope the order is short-lived.

For the safety of the community...
...the clubs and bars were closed.  As for this youth club...it will certainly regroup one day and probably meet in a secure and safe location.  

[ Parent ]
How about increasing security at the gay bars?


# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #


[ Parent ]
That's the bar's responsibility, ultimately...
...but from a safety standpoint, at least until the officials can figure out what is going on and who is behind the attack...I think it's perfectly acceptable that they close things up for one night for the safety of the community.  Even if they put police in the bars for the night, how would they know the person isn't standing right next to them?

It's not worth the loss of another life.


[ Parent ]
Oh but flooding the streets of Tel Aviv with gays does?
I am not sure the closing of a bar is exactly a safe thing to do when you are currently chasing a man who fled on foot after just attempting to massacre a room of gay teenagers.  These are the same streets the patrons have to get home through after all. That isn't just setting a wolf among sheep, that is sending the sheep out into the wilderness to fend for themselves.  No where near a safe or sensible thing to do without a great deal of coordination and escorting.

Always thinking about it...

[ Parent ]
Kudo451...
That makes no sense.  This person walked into a gay gathering and had multiple targets at the ready.

A gun man on the lose with the thought of killing gay people would target other gay establishments.  If they closed the establishment then the gay people would be at home or else where.  Less fish in the barrel, so to speak.

BTW...flooding?  Flooding the streets with gay people?  Do gay people in Tel Aviv wear special clothes?  How would they be spotted walking down a street vs a straight person?

And...here in the US, when there is a threat against a US Embassy they close all the gov't buildings in the area.  I guess they run the risk of flooding the streets with Gov't workers.


[ Parent ]
So its okay to assume he was done for the night?
"He met his quota" so no need to target the local gay bar in the area or for that matter any other meeting places. My point is that no one is safe on the streets at this point and I don't think closing the bar was all that prudent unless of course the police where providing some form of assistance or information for those who had to move through those streets at that time. There is no inherent safety is just shutting the bar down and sending everyone home. I have worked actually night clubs big and small gay and straight and even had my share of shooting incidents to deal with and usually what happens is that if the incident did not occur inside the bar then people are asked to remain in the bar until the police can be sure it is safe to send them home and a perimeter can be set up to insure the safe passage of attendees out of the incident zone. I am not saying all of that didn't happen. but the idea of someone walking in and just closing the place down, where is the safety in that? Most patrons don't need to wear signs, they have often been drinking and wound up so they are not hard to spot from the general quiet nightly pedestrian and many of these people would have just as likely headed directly toward ground zero of the incident rather than go home. Considering that he fled and the police have no clue where he is but he has to be local because he fled on foot. All I am saying is closing the bar does not inherently mean they did the right thing without the consideration of other details and I am not saying that to cast aspersion on the police. But I am also not talking completely out the side of my neck either.

Always thinking about it...

[ Parent ]
This is the last I'll say on this because I don't think you make sense.
1st...I'm not sure where you work that all these shootings are taking place at gay bars but I'm shocked they don't get more attention in the gay media.

2nd...this is Tel Aviv we're talking about...they have dealing acts of terrorism and the aftermath down to a science.  One of the most chilling things was a line from one of the articles last night where they said when the gunman walked into the place and started shooting, nobody screamed.  They just took cover.  That's the world they live in...it's not just anti-gay hate they deal with.  I cannot for the life of me figure out how you think it's safer for gay people to stay at a bar or club while there is a anti-gay killer on the loose (possibly more than one...who knows if it's a planned attack on multiple fronts). They have no idea who it is or what they look like.  They have shown they have a desire to kill gay people and you think it's safer for them to stand in a gay establishment rather than go home or go to a  place that's less of a target.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  


[ Parent ]
they could always
have a meeting at someone's home....

[ Parent ]
Terrorism
From CNN.com: The shooting occured at a "gay club," police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld told CNN. Rosenfeld said the incident did not appear to be a terrorist act.

Maybe something is being lost in translation, but if this isn't terrorism, I don't know what is.


Amen to that
and it really sucks if that is the filter that the MSM is going to run this tragedy through.

Electricity's for light bulbs!

[ Parent ]
Exactly...to say it isn't terrorism is sugarcoating
Lior Kay, a gay activist who took part in the demonstration, said, "I just want say one thing. We will not be intimidated. We will not be frightened by this act of terrorism."

Education Minister Sa`ar likens Tel Aviv gay center gunman to Taliban

Source: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S...


[ Parent ]
In the minds of the American media,
terrorism is something Muslims do.  Therefore--again, in their minds--this is not terrorism.  

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary


[ Parent ]
Small comfort...
...news sites are saying there were two deaths, not three.

Two deaths too many.


According to your logic, Fritz
I now have an excuse to shoot up the offices of the Fox affiliate in Chicago because I think that the Fox News Network is creating conditions with it's news coverage that is increasing the chances of a premature death for the President of the United States.

Please delete the post I am responding to.
It's beyond the pale.

[ Parent ]
The Tel Aviv GLBT community has pulled together quickly.
BBC has coverage of rallies taking place.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/mid...


They should choke on their words...
Tel Aviv City Council's Shas faction, an ultra-Orthodox party whose MKs have repeatedly spoken against homosexuality, extended its condolences to the victims and condemned the shooting.

"We are shocked and bereaved, and denounce without reservation the murderous incident that targeted Tel Aviv's gay community," the party said.

Christ how it irritates me when these extreme religious groups try to distance themselves from the hate and violence that THEY prompted and caused.

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/s...


Exactly
They never get tired f citing their damn holy book, which calls for gay people to be put to death.  Then when someone kills a gay person, they pretend shock and ask "God golly, how could this have happened?"

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary


[ Parent ]
Just wait......
......

It's a three step process

   Step One:   Distance themselves
   Step Two:   Claim to be the victim
   Step three: Clamp down with more anti-gay rhetoric

This appears to be the MO of all religious extremist organizations..

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." ~~~ Thomas Jefferson


[ Parent ]
Just got a change to read this thread
Fritz, I have no opinion as to whether or not you are correct, but do you really think that this is the appropriate thread to post your theory? Why don't you write it as a diary instead?

Children are dead. Can you please let the rest of us grieve without side-tracking the thread?

To the Iraeli LGBT community, the surviving victims and the friends and families of those who died: Ha-Makom yenahem etkhem b'tokh sha ar aveilei Tzion vYerushalayim (May the Omnipresent comfort you among all the mourners of Zion and Jerusalem).

susanferman.wordpress.com


"Children are dead"
And, you know what? Michael Lucas has killed more gay children than that gunman did.

He pays young boys to have sex without condoms.

He went to Israel with his own agenda. It was all over the news yesterday. Now, this happens.

Can you please let the rest of us grieve without side-tracking the thread?

And, who will mourn for these kids?



When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
Two different issues
Fritz, while you and I have respectfully disagreed many times in the past, I have to say that this time it is starting to look to me like you are deliberately attempting to hi-jack this thread.

While you may be making valid points, you are addressing a separate issue that would be more appropriately addressed in a separate post.

susanferman.wordpress.com


[ Parent ]
Okay, I'll give it rest


When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
Oh, I do want know what you think
about the swastikas painted on the entrance to the center.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
I don't have enough information
To have an informed opinion, but to answer your question upthread, IMHO, if one wanted to instill terror in any Jew and have the blame fall on a non-Jew, the swastika would be the symbol to use.

susanferman.wordpress.com

[ Parent ]
I did read that Israel has a hate crime law
The penalty for a hate crime (which includes sexual orientation) is doubled. That's pretty progressive when compared to the U.S.

That's something people around the world should take note of if/when this monster is caught.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
What children?
Oh, for the love of Cthulhu...

There are no children in the box cover you posted. If there were children present in his movies he'd be charged with trafficing in child-porn.

I can understand you personally not liking what he does. But you are making false equivalencies and specious arguments in pursuit of your point.

I'm going to go over here and roll my eyes some more.


[ Parent ]
They are someone's chuldren
I never mentioned "child porn" -- that is your red herring.

I can understand you personally not liking what he does. But you are making false equivalencies and specious arguments in pursuit of your point.

No. You just don't get it.

This is the kind of porn that Lucas does. His films feature urination into mouths and open anuses, bareback sex, fisting, S&M, and more. This isn't mild erotica.

Check out this article about Lucas' porn business:

http://www.gaysexblog.net/spun...

So, can you not understand that this kind of thing would anger the religious orthodoxy in Israel? Can you not see that this would encourage a crazy person to take violent action against the most conveneient target -- a bunch of gay kids at a regularly scheduled meeting?

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
Sorry, you don't get to escape that easily...
You introduced the tired, "think of the children" trope, not me. Everyone pictured in the image you posted was a man. An adult. No children were involved in the making of the movie.

As for all the sex acts you described, what adults do, what adults chose to do and be filmed doing is pretty much their business.  I don't have a problem with whatever erotica they chose to create. Neither you or I have to buy it or watch it. We're adults, too.

Given the fact that the haredi are angered by people turning on a light on a Saturday, setting them off isn't all that hard to do.

Bronze-age superstitions are like that....


[ Parent ]
Seriously, if you hate this guy so much why advertise for him?
Up until this thread I had never heard of him or his videos. Which causes me to beg the question of why a random gunman in an even more conservative country would have done so?
I think you have a valid point but I think you need a bit more evidence to convict. However I have had that feeling before where you just get this intuitive sense that two events are connected and it is not as far out as it might seem. Until you to attempt to make a real and factual argument out of it without further information. It is seriously like jumping off the fundie bridge without a bungee cord to me. But I will keep my eyes open too.

Always thinking about it...

[ Parent ]
I thought that's what these threads were for
Discussion, speculation, and sharing of views.

Obviously, that is not the case.

...I think you need a bit more evidence to convict.

Convict? Who gave me that power?

I'm not in law enforcement. I don't have any official powers.

I did think that I had the right to share and discuss my opinions.

Again, not the case on Pam' House Blend.

The bullies here will call you names, harass you, and SHUT YOU UP.

I'm done here for a while. I can only take this kind of crap in small doses.

But, I want you all to know that over the past few weeks I have received numerous email messages from people who have been driven away from this blog.

What your doing when you call someone "crazy", "bonehead", and try to paint him or her as someone who is begging for attention is called CENSORSHIP. You silence a voice that could be an ally.

That person may decide not to make calls or knock on doors for marriage equality because they have been told by those of you at PHB that they aren't good enough to speak out. They aren't as smart or politically correct.

That's your loss, and a loss that you've spread to the rest of the LGBT community.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
Bullshit...
...it's always the people who are complaining who say that they have tons of people writing them and say they won't be posting here.  Give me a break.  

Why would they complain to a person who has absolutely NO ability to change the situation?  What kind of person wouldn't talk directly to the site owner(s) or mods?

Save the drama...the store is closed and nobody is buying it.


[ Parent ]
not on point, and it's only generated rancor...let's move along


[ Parent ]
Fritz, we've received this response from Michael Lucas's firm
"My name is Patrick Collins and I am the Publicity Director for Lucas Entertainment. I am writing in response to a number of false comments written by "Fritz" against both Michael Lucas and his company, Lucas Entertainment. We categorically deny all of his incorrect statements, and need to state the following:

1. Michael Lucas and Lucas Entertainment have never produced, directed, or distributed bareback porn. All Lucas Entertainment features utilize safer sex practices, including condoms during anal sex.

2. The video in question, "Inside Prague" is not bareback, and all anal sex scenese show the use of condoms.

3. CNN never ran any segment regarding Michael Lucas or Lucas Entertainment during the promotional campaign for Men of Israel.

If you have any further questions or comments, please reach me at patrick@lucasentertainment.com."

Thank you
Patrick

Best regards,

Patrick Collins
Publicity Director

Lucas Entertainment
589 8th Ave, 2nd Floor
New York, NY 10018



[ Parent ]
Fritz, who whines constantly about community standards here,
has managed to make still another thread be all about HIM instead of helping keep the focus where it belongs, on this horrible massacre.  

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary


[ Parent ]
Thanks for the personal attack
Why is it so difficult to understand that these kinds of personal attacks are unacceptable.

It is trollish and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Believe it or not, I got several email messages last night and today from people who are afraid to comment on PHB. They are afraid someone will make a comment like what you've written about them, too.

They don't want to be subjected to this kind of harassment.

Why do you think it is okay to write something like this?

has managed to make still another thread be all about HIM...

This is not constructive. I voiced an honest opinion and people attacked me personally for it. This is what drives people away from this and many other blogs.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
There is a marked difference between a personal attack
and the clearly factual observation that you have hijacked a thread about a severely tragic event and turned into into a grandstand for your puritanical views.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary


[ Parent ]
This tragedy
Made me imagine a remake of a same sex Romeo and Juliet a Palestinian and Jewish male couple who's family war over them.

Sorry off topic, but that's what came to my mind, I guess the ages of victims triggered this thought.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


Now *that* would get you shot.
Would be a great film to make, though.  Still, it seems that even the hard-line fundamentalist Palestinian Muslims and the hard-line fundamentalist Israeli Orthodox Jews are more than willing to team up for the sake of a good old-fashioned gay-bashing.

[ Parent ]
Given the state of the world, it's probably already happened
That would be an interesting movie.

This, OTOH, is so unbelievably sick and fucked up.

What sociopath targets children for a hate crime like this?

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
What kind of sociopath?
The same kind that jumps the kids coming out of the Memphis Area Gay Youth meetings to beat them up.

The same kind that pushes 14 year old girls down the stairs in hopes of killing them so they can cheer to their pastor.

The kind I encounter every day taken to the next level.

No one ever talks about [extermination]. They just do it. And you go on with your lives, ignoring the signs all around you. And then, one day, when the air is still and the night has fallen, they come for you.


[ Parent ]
Religious people, you mean
One day those people who beat up the Memphis teens are going to come back with a semi-auto and unload in there just like the criminal in Tel Aviv after he's heard his preacher say for umpteenth time that homosexuality is a threat to America. Religious people do this shit. In America, it's christians doing this shit. I don't know of any atheist or humanist group that advocates killing gay people.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

[ Parent ]
Um, what do you think would happen?
Could it be something like this?

Oscar nominee Natalie Portman apparently got a little too close to a male costar while the pair were too close to Judaism's holiest shrine. According to Israeli newspaper Yediot Ahronot, on Tuesday, angry ultra-Orthodox Jews chased Portman and costar Aki Avni from the Jerusalem set of their film Free Zone because they were being filmed kissing in a parking lot near the Wailing Wall, the 2,000-year-old remnant of the Biblical Second Temple. It's a site maintained by strictly observant Jews, where a partition keeps male and female worshipers separate, in keeping with Jewish law that forbids casual contact between men and women who aren't related. Police had to intervene, separating the film crew from the chanting protesters.

According to the paper, the director, veteran Israeli filmmaker Amos Gitai, hadn't asked permission to film at the site, but he negotiated an agreement with police and the Orthodox group to return later and resume filming. It wasn't clear if the couple were allowed to kiss in the re-shot scene.

The Israeli-born Portman has been living in her homeland for the past few months and taking courses at Hebrew University. In the movie, she plays one of three women involved in selling cars between Israel and Jordan.



When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
From CT/HEARST Newspapers ....
http://blog.ctnews.com/evans/2...

Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. - Edward R Murrow




CNN vs MSNBC
CNN
Front page title of story:
2 dead, 11 injured in Israel club shooting
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/...

MSNBC
Front page title of story:
Police hunt killer of gay Israeli youths

Inside MSNBC titles the story:

Police in manhunt for Tel Aviv gay club shooter
Masked shooter opened fire at youth center, killing 2 and injuring 11

And goes on to give a 2 pages of description, analysis, quotes from a openly gay lawmaker, information about the gay communities response to the incident, talk of how religious incitement of hate against gays can lead to this kind of thing, while CNN can only spare 11 sentences for it & doesn't go in depth at all.

I feel like I'm noticing a trend in here in overall quality of reporting.


Thanks Jake
Thanks for that link! I've been searching for actual coverage of this tragedy.

Electricity's for light bulbs!

[ Parent ]
Thank you, fellow Jake!
I have been keeping a rough tally on this CNN/MSNBC thing  about several issues.  Since Lou Dobbs has gone off the deep, I admit I don't watch CNN much anymore but do check in online.  I appreciate this juxtaposition!

[ Parent ]
I hope the UN with it's LGBT outreach can focus the world on this needless slaughter of kids
Tell these repressive faith-based reguimes the hate they spew are responsible for these deaths. Maybe it can get them to tone done the vitriol. LGBTs would be wise to explain this isn't just a loss for the birth parents, these youths are our loss as well.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


tone down...typo


"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
I also hope the world focuses on the COWARDICE of this killer
Hiding behind a mask to kill children...how manly.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


I am seriously having a hard time with the portrayal of this event as a Gay Club
It was held in a community center and it was the weekly gathering of LGBT youth. One of the people killed was a 26 year old counselor and the other a 17 year old girl.

Maybe it is all just semantics but I think it is an important distinction for a less than knowledgeable global community to understand that this was a shooting that occurred at a supervised teenage gathering in a community center.

Teenagers standing around and listening to music in an environment made to imitate a club and actually being in a club are two very different things. These kids had gathered for community and to raise awareness among themselves and all of that is being downplayed by the police, the media and the Israeli Government it would seem.

I suppose this is the part where the "patriarchal" ultra conservative types move in and attempt to save us from ourselves by attempting to regulate the movements and gatherings of the entire gay community? "For the sake of community safety and for our own good of course"! I feel for the victims but it is rather evident by the way this story is being told that the real victims here are about to be the entire gay community in Israel.

Always thinking about it...


I think the media is clear that it's a youth group.
Every article I've read has been very clear that it's a youth group and not a club/bar.

In Tel Aviv this event is called a gay club.

Anybody who reads the articles and walks away thinking it was a dance club or bar wouldn't be helped with a change in terminology.  


[ Parent ]
Nir Katz has already been laid to rest
Nir Katz, one of the two people killed during Saturday night's shooting attack at a gay and lesbian youth center in Tel Aviv, was laid to rest in Modi'in on Sunday.

Katz, 26, who served as a counselor at the center for the past three years, lived with his partner of four years in Givatayim.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articl...


We don't know the details but we do know a few things.
First of all I want to say RIP brother and sisters.

Vengeance is ours.

This is what we know.

One - The three Abrahamic cults are equally homohating and equally responsible for violence against us. That includes christers, the islamists and the judaists, who started it all.

Two - this should put to rest the idea that the zionist state is somehow gay-friendly. It is not. A large part of the population is living the middle ages in terms of their attitudes towards women and GLBT folks. The fact that they 'allow' gays and lesbians in the military is simply an extension of their need for cannon fodder in their endless wars of conquest and colonial occupation.   When the zionist secret police discover GLBT Palestinians they always blackmail them into becoming agents. Etc.

Three - This level of violence against GLBT folks is new but it has plenty of precedents in a society awash in the blood of Palestinians and their neighbors. Zionist settlers, police, secret police and military forces routinely engage in the wanton murder of Palestinians, especially targeting children, to enforce the bondage of apartheid. They practice ethic cleansing to gain new land.

Malcolm X, remarking on the violent death of JFK, who began US involvement in Vietnam, ordered the invasion of Cuba (Bay of Pigs) and the murder of Congolese Premier Patrice Lumumba said JKK's assassination was the 'chickens coming home to roost'.

Violence against children (remember that epidemic of mindless school yard killings) rose sharply in the aftermath of Vietnam and we can expect more as a result of Iraq and Afghanistan. The same holds true for zionist society.  

I'm afraid that's going to be the case with zionist society with it's bunker mentality suffused with violence against Palestinians. Just as the US oil piracy in South Asia led to an increase violence against LGBT folks there and here by inflaming the right and emboldening the thugs, so it does in the zionist colonial state.  

Our brothers and sisters there are in for hard times.

Four Slimebag porno and child abuser that he is, Lucas isn't the reason this slaughter of innocent LGBT children took place. The violence of Zionist society, awash in the blood of Palestinians, is turning inward.



The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  


Israel, and particularly Jerusalem, attracts fanatic religionists
Most haredi men don't serve the obligatory years in the armed forces, usually on the justification that they must use their time for religious study. (The same justification is used for men not working, and having the women be the breadwinners and homemakers.) A minority of haredi are true pacifists who do not serve in the armed forces because they oppose the concept of war.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the same young (and older) ultra-Orthodox men who throw stones at women who wear "immodest" (by their standards) clothes, or at public transit buses serving both men and women, and passing through the neighborhood, are the ones who get their jollies on by threatening gays. The desire for proving one's manhood by violence can't be eliminated in any type of community, whatever the religion, but in this case there are few of the usual organized outlets. All that said, the majority of extreme religionists seem to be satisfied with excluding people from their own community and not the larger nation.

The Christian visitors have their own religious fanatics, and I can imagine that Christian Zionists would be capable of viewing this as an attempt to "purify" Israel.

I can also imagine right-wing secularists having the same eliminationist viewpoints, and condoning or committing violent acts against the (presumed) insufficiently militaristic gays.

The one extremist element that I think would not bother targeting gays are the extremists among the Palestinian population. My guess is that the gays would be too unambitious a target for those who want to get revenge on all of Israel. Why go after an unpopular group (LGBT)?


Is it too soon to point out that it might have been a personal feud?


Some people have
On the non-LGBT boards. Unfortunately, almost every one of the comments I have seen asserts that if it wasn't a hate crime, it must have been a "lover's quarrel", "jilted gay lover", etc. One person named Rivka (I now forget where) even went so far as to quote some bogus study that says that gays prone to violence and likely to die at the hands of another gay person.

The vast majority of people seem to be assuming that it is one or the other, and completely ignoring any other possibility.

susanferman.wordpress.com


[ Parent ]
Business dispute?
This kind of thing has happened in the past when a landlord or similar corrupt business person wanted a tenant to vacate. It has happened in restaurants and nightclubs and even a beauty salon that I can recall off the top of my head.

They just hire a goon to go in and shoot the place up. It usually works, too.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.


[ Parent ]
Thank you Lurleen for the update with two photos
While it makes it more personal and more sad to see their faces...it's good, we don't want them forgotten.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


Back to the Future
Haven't been reading the Blend much lately, but I see it's like old times  here.  I mean the ranting about Michael Lucas as the cause of the problem, when Israel has had a flourishing genre of gay cinema for years.  Might as well blame Eytan Fox, who is home-grown. Or maybe sunspots.  Too much sun-tanning?

Wasn't there a similarly excessive thread blasting the "pornography" in Milk?

And then the "Zionist" bashing. Israeli gays and lesbians have more national rights than we do here.  It's not just about the military. And if you know gays and lesbians over there, as I do, you'd know that in many ways their lives are safer and better than ours.  

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report


Lev, I have ordered "My Germany"
What a powerful story and memoir. Looking forward to reading it and knowing more about moving from darkness into light.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

[ Parent ]
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